Listen here:
YouTube
Spotify
Apple Podcasts
This episode was produced by Annie Nguyen, Reanna Dona-Termine, and Ashley Tam, hosted by Annie Nguyen, and graphic by Callista Wu and Claire Sun.
Chapters and Time Stamps:
0:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast
0:51 Introduction to Dr. Caroline Park
2:33 The Medical School Train and Fellowship Choices
5:46 Why Trauma Surgery?
7:30 A Day in the Life
9:47 Acute Care Surgery Lifestyle and Scope of Patient Care
12:23 Addressing the Mental and Emotional Stress of Surgical Specialties
15:37 Institutional Efforts to Address Mental Health
17:10 Representation in Surgical Subspecialties
18:38 Carefully Choosing Hobbies: Running, Gardening, Cats!
23:59 Living in Dallas
25:00 Moving to a New City
26:42 Choosing Where to Live and Finding Community
28:39 Managing Finances
31:16 Pursuing Research and Building Your Skillset
33:55 Advice for Those Interested in Surgical Specialties
36:35 Closing: What is One Thing that Brought You Joy Today?
0:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast
Annie: Welcome everyone to the 2nd episode of the Asian Pacific American Medical Student Association Podcast. From roundtable discussions of current health topics, to recaps of our panels with distinguished leaders in the healthcare field, to even meeting current student leaders within the organization – this is White Coats and Rice. My name is Annie Nguyen, a postbac at Stanford University, and a member of the Leadership Committee at APAMSA. I’ll be your host for today!
This is our Ask Me Anything Series! Each month, we spotlight an extraordinary physician who shares their insights on medicine, life, and everything in between. This is your chance to ask questions, hear their stories, and learn from their incredible experiences. Whether you’re curious about their journey, their day-to-day, or their views on the future of medicine, nothing is off the table. Let’s dive in!
0:51 Introduction to Dr. Caroline Park
Annie: I wanted to first introduce, of course, our guest of honor, Doctor Caroline Park, who specializes in emergency general surgery, trauma and surgical critical care. Her medical career has spanned Boston, New York, Los Angeles and most recently, Dallas, Texas, as she has joined the UT southwestern faculty in 2018. Her research focuses on surgical critical care practices, outcomes in trauma patients, and integrating new technologies. And we’re very lucky to have Doctor Park here with us today. So let’s give her a little round of applause. And before we jump into some questions, Doctor Park, I just wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself further and maybe describe your career, because it does seem like you’ve been, you know, all over the place.
Dr. Park: Yeah, I first of all, I want to say thank you to you guys. I really looked forward to this in our last sort of, interaction. It was wonderful. And I’m just so grateful to be able to do this. I’ve always wanted an opportunity to kind of give back to my community, and I never really quite figured out how to do it. So there you guys are. Just showed up. It was perfect. Perfect timing. Not really much else to add. I this is my first job, um, in Dallas and I’ve loved it. Um, I am a big city girl, and I think that might, you know, come up in some of the questions that maybe some of you guys have. So, uh, to not be afraid to, to kind of pick up and maybe move to another place because you’d be surprised by how much you learn. And, you know, these days it’s really not too it’s not too difficult to, you know, to meet your family and be connected. So, um, be brave.
2:33 The Medical School Train and Fellowship Choices
Annie: I really appreciate that. So could you describe more about what was the driving force between moving to Los Angeles? You were there for a short stint, I think, before the pandemic, and then now you’re in Texas. Was it the job specifically, like trauma surgery?
Dr. Park: Uh, yeah, actually. So, um, one thing that you’ll notice, and I think it sounds like a lot of students here are in medical school. Some of some of you guys might be, you know, applying to medical school. It is almost like a railroad. You kind of get onto the medical school train and it’s, a it’s kind of just goes in one direction. So honestly, the hardest obstacle, the most difficult obstacle, in my opinion, is getting into medical school. There is so much that you have to do these days anyway, right? So observer ships, clinical hours, research all those things in order to make it. And it’s very, very competitive. But once you’re on that train, you know, whether it’s good or bad, you know, you have preferences for where you want to go and it, you know, your fate is to some degree, sort of determined by an algorithm, like a computer, right? Like just how it was for medical school. So it’s kind of the same thing, with fellowship, which is advanced training. So, for example, you know, anyone who wants to go into surgery has to do a surgery residency, right? A general surgery residency. Um, if you want to go into orthopedic surgery, you have to do a residency in orthopedic surgery. However, if you want to go beyond being a general surgeon, which is still a really great job. You would have to do a fellowship. Now that’s more advanced training. That could be anywhere between 1 and 3 years, potentially. And, you know, it could be anywhere from pediatric surgery to surgical oncology to what I do, which is acute care surgery, trauma, critical care. Um, so at that point, you actually have a choice in where you want to be, because these programs now will become a little bit more diverse. So medical school, you have to take the same classes – anatomy, biochemistry, you know, all that stuff. Um, but when it comes to fellowship, there are what I describe as certain flavors. So maybe there’s a fellowship where you want to learn more critical care, or one where you want to operate on really big hernias, and you start to see those differences in those fellowships. So you kind of get a sense of what you want when you’re in residency. Like, I really want to focus on this, so I’m going to look for that place. You have a little bit more control. I guess what I’m trying to say is you get a little bit more control as you’re on that, you know, sort of that train and you can kind of figure out what your destination is going to be. And so that’s what led to me in Los Angeles was I was willing to come out of my bubble. I’ve been, you know, I was born and raised in the Northeast. I’ve survived multiple storms. I was getting tired of the weather. I, I didn’t like the fact that it was always dark when I woke up, and it was dark when I went to bed. Um, and I wanted to just try something different. And I was, I think that was the best decision I ever made. I met a completely different group of people, like, they do things differently, and I had so much fun. So, um, and it’s only a couple of years of your life. You’re not committed to staying out there. So I would highly recommend that you guys kind of go outside your bubble and explore. That way you can look back and say, you know what, I tried everything and I don’t regret it.
5:46 Why trauma surgery?
Annie: For sure. And you’re right, Boston storms are absolutely no joke. So I’m glad that you got some sunshine in LA. In terms of what was, you know, directing your freight train, if we want to call it that. Um, what drew you to trauma surgery or just surgery in general?
Dr. Park: I am very biased because I believe that surgery is the best, because not only do you get to diagnose something, you can treat it either minimally with medications or medical management to like maximum management. Right? So like with a scalpel, I, you know, there’s not a lot of people that can do that. And I think that’s why general surgery is even better, because, I mean, we truly take care of the whole patient. I mean, outside of like, you know, the head and doing bony, you know, bony injuries and things like that. I mean, you know, my scope of practice can be anywhere between taking, you know, an inflamed appendix out of someone to, um, you know, sewing a heart closed after, um, you know, someone got stabbed or shot in the heart to, you know, unfortunately, patients with, you know, really bad, peripheral arterial disease and had diabetic ulcers, and now it’s grown to infection in the amputation. I mean, it’s really wide. Um, and I’m very glad that, you know, we get such rigorous training in residency. The reason why it is five years long is because you have to know your anatomy. And not only that, you have to understand the disease processes. You have to understand, you know, what are the best options for this patient. Right. And then of course, like the last point is like doing the operation, right. The technical part. So I feel so grateful that we can constantly move from, you know, making sure we master all the concepts and the anatomy to like doing the operation and then managing everything else afterwards.
7:30 A Day in the Life
Annie: I think that there is an aspect of diversity here that you’re highlighting, especially in general surgery. And for someone who’s considering specialties that could be overwhelming to them. So to kind of clue them in, could you describe a typical day in your life?
Dr. Park: Absolutely. So, um, let’s say I’ll describe a call day… Okay. So I wake up, um, around six in the morning, which I know sounds very late to you guys because you guys are probably waking up much earlier to go to the hospital and see your patients and pre-ground. Um, but I, I go to I go to work, we do our morning sign out because sign out is very important. We have to talk about all the patients that came in from last night, all the ones that need an operation, you know, other people that are very sick that we need to know about. And we kind of prioritize, you know, what we’re going to do for the day. So for people who love a lot of control and want to know exactly what they’re going to do a few days prior, what I do is probably not the best for them because I literally roll into work and that’s that’s what’s on the list. Um, so but that being said, there are more common things that we do as general surgeons in acute care surgery, and that’s a lot of it is appendicitis, hernias, um, cholecystitis for sure. Um, and some other things, like they’re patients in the ICU intensive care unit who need tracheostomies, feeding tubes, biopsies. I mean, there’s so many things that I could be doing. So between really seven in the morning and seven the next day, I am in the hospital. Um, we get called about patients in the emergency room who might need a surgical, you know, they have a, you know, potential surgical problem. Um, I’m operating. So in between cases, I’m seeing these patients in between cases, um, I’m rounding on patients who are already admitted. And then that, you know, that happens pretty much throughout the whole night. And, um, thankfully, our cases are not very long. Now, some of you may already be in clerkships where you’re operating and standing for long periods of time. Um, I have to say that our cases are not as long as some of the other specialties, like, you know, vascular surgery or surgical oncology, where you’re maybe standing for like six, seven hours or time. Our cases are pretty short, mostly 1 to 3 hours. So I like that. I like the speed. I like being able to move between cases and patients. I prefer more volume of, uh, patients and taking care of them versus like the, you know, the length of the case.
9:47 Acute Care Surgery Lifestyle and Scope of Patient Care
Annie: You mentioned, before the call started, that this is just an interesting week because you’re actually in the ICU. So what is that?
Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so let’s say I’ve recovered from that 24 hour call. I get to go home. Um, I don’t have to go. I do not have to go to work the next day. And, uh, I only take maybe, like, four of those calls a month, so I don’t want people to think like, oh, my gosh, there’s no way I can stay up for that long. You know, every other day. That’s not my life, okay? And I think a lot of people kind of get scared, or intimidated by, by that kind of lifestyle. But it is very, very doable. You just need to kind of pace yourself and, give yourself a break and let yourself recover. So the other sphere of acute care surgery, so there’s three in my mind. There’s emergency general surgery, which is what I basically just described. And then there’s trauma, which is, you know, trauma patients, trauma surgery. And then there’s critical care surgery, which is kind of in the middle. And there’s some people that like to gravitate towards one versus the other. And there are some people that are like a perfect Venn diagram, and they’d like to be just in the middle. And there are other people that really like more of the trauma. I would say I love all of that stuff. I can’t say I prefer more than another. I really do love taking care of trauma patients, but, you know, I love every aspect of it. Surgery is very, unique in that you’re going back to, like, medical school and you are looking at the patient holistically again. You are literally looking at that from head to toe. The neuro-, you know, the neurologic system, the cardiovascular system, pulmonology, GI, you, you know, infectious I mean, literally, we’re looking at every single system and making sure that we are addressing it. If there is an issue, there’s an infection, we’re treating it well, things like that. And I love that part, because it brings me back to all the things that some of you probably wish that you don’t ever have to remember, you know? Um, like things like the coagulation cascade. Right? You’d be surprised. There are certain things you actually do need to remember. The Krebs cycle hasn’t really been very applicable for me, but there are definitely things that, you know, there’s a reason why you learn all these things in medical school, so I love it. And the one thing that people sort of have some I wouldn’t say critical of acute care surgery, but they’re like, you know, you never really get to establish a relationship with the patient. You guys operate and they’re gone the next day. I would say that’s not really the case. I think in the ICU you could, you know, stay with the patient the whole week. That’s enough for me to feel like I have established a relationship with the family, to have rapport, for them to remember me in clinic, that’s good enough for me. I think some people wish for more. I think that’s that’s totally fine.
12:23 Addressing the Mental and Emotional Stress of Surgical Specialties
Annie: That was an incredibly insightful answer, and I think that you provided some really helpful metrics for anyone who might be considering this specialty in particular, such as, you know, preference on hours or volume. One thing is the emotional, and kind of psychological burden that comes with surgery. I think that’s maybe one reason why students will tend to hesitate. Can you describe what that experience has been like for you and how you personally address that?
Dr. Park: I think the biggest thing, and this is not unique to surgery, is being able to talk about things. It’s probably and, you know, I don’t want to make too many stereotypes about being an Asian American, but it’s not a strength that I had growing up was to talk about things. especially with, you know, with my parents, it was all about like, all the good things that you do are positively reinforced and then all the things that you don’t do well or, you know, you would never do that again. or even if you did do well, it was like, well, we kind of expected that. So, you know, like you got an A minus. Why why didn’t you get an A instead of an A-minus? You have to be willing to check your ego and realize that you’re human, and all of that sorrow and stress and tragedy is going to affect you at some point. And if it doesn’t, then I don’t know what to say. If it does, you’re human and it’s totally natural. And I would only expect that. And I hope that you are all surrounded by people who are willing to, like, debrief. Like, for example, if a patient comes in and unfortunately, this happens more often than we want, who comes in, you know, bleeding to death or has been shot. And we’re trying to do our best, but ultimately we can’t save that patient. It is a very hard thing for the medical students to witness, and I try to prepare them in advance. But you can only prepare someone so much. When they go through all that and they see kind of like really, truly how like, I don’t want to say violent, but it’s very it’s very involved. It’s very graphic. Right? It’s real. you can’t just ignore that and just say, okay, well, let’s move on to the next patient. You have to really talk about it. And I think it’s really important. Sometimes you’re busy and you just don’t have the time right now. But I would say if you feel empowered, you should feel empowered. And I hope that the people around you, your residents, your fellows, your staff, you say, you know what, we need to talk about this. So let’s just find some time and talk about this and just open it up and just see what people say. That’s what I would suggest, because at any point in your careers, all of you going into medical school, you will have to deal with death at some point. You will have to deal with something really tragic, and it’s going to affect you in a way that you did not predict. Maybe you won’t be able to sleep at night. Maybe you’re like, running longer and you’re just like, oh my gosh, I didn’t realize running for a whole hour. That happened to me the other day. I guess something was on my mind because I was running for a whole hour. I didn’t realize I’d run like seven miles. I’m like, gosh, I guess something is on my mind. So we all have different ways of kind of coping with that, so find some way to talk about it and some way to, in a healthy way, in some way to cope with it, and also in a healthy way.
15:37 Institutional Efforts to Address Mental Health
Annie: Embracing those really intense, visceral emotions instead of showing them down and pretending like they’re not there. As someone who has moved up in leadership and had various leadership roles, such as a medical director and now an associate professor, have you seen a more positive trend towards having those kinds of conversations, or have you seen institutions, make more of an effort to create those safer spaces for those conversations to be held? Or what work do you feel like needs to be done there?
Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of institutions are heading towards that. If they’re not doing it already, some specialties may, you know, should be doing better than others for sure. I would say that it has to come from your leadership. Because if your leaders are not willing to be open and receive that kind of feedback or have those kinds of open conversations, it’s not going to sort of percolate down, right? All the layers. So it does have to come from the top. And it has to be sincere too, right? Not just like, oh, just drop by my office whenever. Like, no, you have to, you have to be proactive. You reach out to people, you ask them how they’re doing. Right? And it’s not just like, hey, are you doing okay? It’s like, hey, like, you know, how’s your dog doing? Like, I know there was a bad storm and they get really affected by that, like those small things like that, that really that makes a big difference to people. It’s hard because we’re doing, we’re doing the best we can to take care of patients, and that is enough to do. It’s like super exhausting. You’re trying to take care of yourself, and now you’re trying to take care of your coworkers. Like it’s a lot every day, and you sometimes like your best every day. There’s this like, um, it’s not really a mem, but it’s like your best every day is so different. Sometimes it’s like down here and sometimes it’s way up there. That’s the best that you can ask from yourself.
17:10 Representation in Surgical Subspecialties
Annie: For sure. one thing that, just for the sake of transparency and for, everyone on the call who’s maybe trying to figure out a specialty, where do you feel that surgery falls in that spectrum of this willingness to discuss these things? If you have to be brutally-
Dr. Park: I, I’m maybe, I’m just like very, very lucky. But I feel like I’m in an environment where is very transparent and I feel very comfortable. maybe there’s some cultural differences, right? maybe in certain parts of the country, maybe in certain parts of the world. I mean, I hate to say it, but there are definitely some parts of the world where, there’s definitely more male surgeons than women surgeons. There’s not equal representation of, you know, underrepresented minorities. And there has to be a really good, deliberate effort to maintain diversity with excellence. It is not impossible. Um, people are too comfortable with, like, the status quo. And it doesn’t have to be like that. The status quo can be boring, and sometimes it’s not good. it’s not helpful for the people working the patients. All I can say is, when you guys are looking for programs, I mean, obviously most of you are already in medical school, but when you’re looking at residencies and fellowships and it’s something that you really care about, like representation, um, you know, look at the classes, what do they look like? It’s very easy to look at the residencies to see how well represented they are. Where are they coming from? Are they just coming from the same school that they’re associated with? That’s probably not a good sign. right. You want to get people who are from all over the place that are going to bring in new ideas. That’s how you learn.
18:38 Carefully Choosing Hobbies: Running, Gardening, Cats!
Annie: So we’ve touched on some interesting topics of finding community, dealing with difficult things head on. Um, and that is typically done best in community. But there are things that we can do for ourselves to stay grounded. And you had mentioned running as something that is one of your hobbies. I believe you’ve run marathons before. Um, plural, actually, which is insane. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about what you personally like to do to decompress? And maybe we had some specific questions about marathon training, but we can get to that too.
Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that, um, first of all, I never, I actually hated to I hated running when I was smaller when I was a child, and some of you guys don’t. This probably doesn’t even happen anymore. But there was something called the President Fitness Challenge in gym. So yeah, you’re looking at me like this never happened. So you had to, like, do this thing where you had to shuttle between two things. You had to, like stretch, you had to do a pull up. And the only thing I could do was stretch. I was terrible at everything else. I can never do a pull up. I still can’t do a pull up. But it wasn’t until maybe college, or maybe even after college when I was, I actually ran my first 5K. It was for breast cancer awareness and I was hooked after that. And I think I was hooked because it was a time where I was totally not distracted. I didn’t have my cell phone on me. I could just go out and it was my time and I could just focus on me. And that is not easy to find anymore. I know right now you guys probably feel like you have a lot of time, but there will be a time where you have 30 minutes to an hour and you have to be very, very deliberate about what you’re going to do. How are you going to spend that hour? You’re going to spend it on yourself. You spend it on someone else. You can spend something that you like to do or something because you feel like you have to do something else for somebody. So whatever it is, It has to bring you joy. What if in the past you had 20 hobbies, you may only have time for two? So, you know, just pick those things very, very wisely. For me, it’s like the running is easy. I don’t have to go to a gym. I just put on my AirPods, I go outside, I run, I come back, it’s very easy for me to do. Um, so long story short, I never, it was not something I love to do before, it’s something I like to do now. You can always start later in your life. my first marathon actually was in Los Angeles, and I finished it. The good and bad story of that race is that I wanted to run a 5K, but that was not available that weekend. And so I did the marathon thinking, well, if I don’t finish it, at least I tried. And so I finished it and that was awesome. So I don’t think I would ever do that again. Um, I’m not a big marathoner. Like the length is too long for me because I frankly, I just get bored. But, uh, half marathons are a great, great distance.
Annie: Okay. That’s insane. Did you train or you were just you intended to do the 5K, but then you just busted out 26 miles.
Dr. Park: I think I might have run up to nine miles before that, but I never. And this is the thing, like, you would think that as someone who’s like, used to like surgery, training and all the things that build up to being a surgeon, like you would think that I would have a good plan with running. But no, I just, I made up my own plan and it turned out fine, I guess, but I would not advise that. I would advise that you actually adhere to a running plan
Annie: That is deeply impressive. Um, I actually ran a marathon in April, and it was one of the hardest things I had ever done, and that required so much training. And so what.
Dr. Park: But have you ever done, have you done something that was equal, that was less hard and you were like, that was a breeze. Like this was nothing? So hard things put other things in perspective and I do think that that’s why some people push themselves so hard. They do these crazy things, the Spartan races, these marathons, because they’re trying to push themselves to the point where, like, okay, now any other obstacle that comes my way is like, okay, I can do this. I’ve done worse. I’ve been through worse before.
Annie: I actually haven’t realized that until this conversation, but that’s actually been my, the metric in my brain. Like, it can’t be worse than the Big Star marathon. Like it does not – oh, I love this. Okay, so any other hobbies, anything that brings you joy? You said normally it will, you know, whittle down to naturally like 1 or 2 hobbies. Is there anything else that you enjoy outside of running?
Dr. Park: I love gardening. I love like being outside gardening. I have lots of indoor plants. I have lots of outdoor plants. I think I like it because you’re watching something grow from a seed and you can see the direct effects again with surgery, like the immediate effects of if you abandon something, you don’t care of it, care for it, versus actually nurturing something, you know, paying attention to things, picking all the dead leaves off. I mean, all these things, I think, again, no distractions away from work, unrelated, focusing on myself. I think these are all things, whatever it can be for you guys. Right. Um, that can be your, your garden or something that you work on. Oh, I have tons of cats. And for a while during the pandemic, I was trapping, neutering, releasing cats, um, that were just in our community. I have never been a cat person. I’ve always had dogs growing up, and they just there’s this thing called the ‘cat distribution system’. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but they just come into your life. And so that’s what happened to us. And we’re like, we’re like, we have to save these cats. And so sequentially, we all got them, you know, neutered or spayed and released them back. And that was my hobby for a couple of years.
23:59 Living in Dallas
Annie: So all of these things that you’ve discovered in Dallas. So gardening, the cat distribution system, choosing you multiple times. what is it like living in Dallas? Is it easy to grow plants? Is the the cat distribution system more tame now?
Dr. Park: I think I feel like I have, um, affected the colony and at least in our neighborhood. So that that’s a good thing. I think I’ve impacted the ecosystem here because of that. I mean, it’s hot, like, I don’t I’m not gonna lie. Like, come from the northeast. It’s hot. But, you know, you just adjust. You just wake up earlier, you go running in the morning, you go running at night, you can grow things. And that the whole caveat here is like, grow things that are indigenous to this area. Right. Like and that’s the other thing I learned like don’t expect to be able to, you know, plant hydrangeas in the middle of the summer and expect them to survive. They’re just not used to that. And, you know, I’ve learned so much about the acidity of the soil and like all these things that I never learned. But that’s how you learn, right? You make mistakes. You make mistakes by planting something to late in the summer. It’s too hot. Um, so yes, I have tomatoes that I’ve grown, um, I have grown like my mom’s favorite flowers. Herbs lately.
25:00 Moving to a New City
Annie: I’m seeing consistent openness to trying new things. It seems like there is no problem with you trying something new, no matter what stage you are in your life. and that definitely seems to have helped you with all these different moves. Is there a ritual or like something that you like to do when you get to a new city? Um, especially for, you know, people who are going through transitions right now, what makes it easier to really immerse yourself in a new place?
Dr. Park: Yeah. This is not going to surprise you at all, but the first thing I do when I’m in a new city is I go running. I literally just I go running, I find the nearest river park, whatever, and I just explore. I think it’s a great way to see the city. You get to see all the sights you’re exercising. Um, so I would highly recommend that. So if you guys are ever going to conferences, um, I would say map out the city. You know, obviously you want to map out a safe route. Um, make sure, because I’ve almost done this before, but like, you run too far out and then you got to run back the whole distance, so you don’t want to make that mistake. Um, you know, and do your research, like, you know, if it’s like Chicago, right? Like, you know, go out to the lake, um, you know, do you want to get that slice of deep dish pizza that everyone, you know, talks about somewhere? So I kind of like to make a little, um, you know, customized itinerary, I guess. That’s another thing I like to do is, when I go traveling, and so I’ll map out a route and say, okay, I’m going to go here. I’m going to, you know, sample this, go to this coffee place, all these kinds of things so you can make it fun and sometimes around conferences or is a little bit of downtime. So I would recommend that you guys do that because it, it can be sometimes a little like, overwhelming to be in a giant conference with tons of people and just be in, you know, in a suit all day in an air conditioned environment, like go outside, get some fresh air, explore.
26:42 Choosing Where to Live and Finding Community
Annie: Perfect. And on that note, we actually have a question in the chat from Stephanie
Stephanie: Have you found it difficult to build community within each city that you’ve moved to? And then how have you, like, navigated trying to find community?
Dr. Park: That’s a really great question. I feel like I have thankfully been able to kind of choose the, like my most recent cities, so that I’m not in a situation where I really feel isolated. Now, I’ll put that in context. I’m a big city person. and when I was looking for a job, one of my specifications was I had to be in a big city. I know it sounds really silly, but as soon as I started to narrow down my job search, I started to look at how many Korean restaurants and H-Marts that were. Is it very important to me that I have access to kimchi once in a month. And I can’t explain why it’s so important to me, but it just is. Um, it’s important for me to have access to that. And one job just it checked all the boxes off. It was wonderful. The people were great. The mentorship was going to be amazing. I was going to have some great opportunities. There just wasn’t diversity there. And to me, it was not worth it. I felt that I could build those things and find those opportunities and be in a city where I would feel more represented, I guess. But, in a place like Dallas, like, I think it is relatively easy to find those pockets, right? So whether it’s like, you know, your culture, your food, your religion, um, you may have to try a little bit harder if you’re in a smaller place, but I’d say, like if you’re really committed and like things are really important to you and you’re looking at residencies or fellowships or even jobs you have, I make a list. I’m a big Excel geek. I look at my top three things that are non-negotiable things. Big city. Right. Diversity, and whatever my top third one was. Right. And if that if the program didn’t meet it, then I had to rank it lower.
28:39 Managing Finances
Annie: One other thing that has come up, for our students in navigating these transition periods, is just finances. And so people will range from having a lot of student loans to maybe not at all. do you have any financial tips that you would offer to medical students and residents, especially ones who might be trying to figure out their next big step?
Dr. Park: One of the things that really, um, used to bother me was when people are like, just don’t have your latte in the morning, just stop eating avocado toast, right? If those things bring you joy and it makes you more productive as a student, as a resident. Then, no, you get the latte and you get the avocado toast, right. There are certain areas where you can be more frugal, and there are other areas where you feel like there is more benefit. So for example, if it’s like, you know, sitting in a coffee shop every day and spending $10 on something so that you can really, truly study well and, you know, get through all your slides and do your work, then I’d say, yes, that’s that’s a great investment. But if you are, if you have multiple subscriptions to services and, you never use your Netflix or whatever it is, then maybe you need to start kind of looking at that, like, really take a look at your balance and see, like, do I use ClassPass or do I go to this gym? It’s kind of like purging your closet. You kind of have to take a good look at like what you don’t need and just let it go. Obviously that’s not going to take care of loans. But I would say about loans is, you know, thankfully now at least, I believe a lot of people got some of their loans forgiven, which, was which was great. Um, I still believe in the in the philosophy of living. Um, was it living like a pauper or something like that? Like even when you’re something, whatever, whatever the expression is, even if you have more income as a resident, as a fellow, even as an attending, I would still live frugally. everyone’s, uh, motivation is it’s like, okay, I’m a big, I’m an attending and I’m going to make my I’m going to make a, you know, a big purchase. And I want it to be a nice car or something like that. If it brings you joy, I think that’s great. But just again, be very mindful about like, you know what that means. And budgeting, it’s like budgeting is so boring and so tedious, but is actually really important. So for me it’s like, I don’t like grocery shopping. It’s something I really don’t enjoy. I don’t like going to the supermarket and smelling the peppers and the watermelons and enjoying that experience. It’s not something I like to do. I pay for a delivery service. It’s worth it for me. Just pick, think about the things that make you really happy. If it’s like the Pilates membership that you have and like it makes you feel amazing, it makes you feel energized or productive at work. It’s something you look forward to doing. You should absolutely spend money on that.
31:16 Pursuing Research and Building Your Skillset
Annie: It sounds like it comes down largely to really knowing yourself and making decisions based off of that. I see that Amber, you have your camera on. Did you want to ask a question?
Amber: I do, it’s kind of taking a turn from what you just discussed. a little more technical related to research especially now that medical school applicants and residency applicants have had more and more research each year as it goes by. Do you have any advice for either students who are applying or current students who are interested in either developing the research further, or even just being able to balance it along with our other commitments that we have going on?
Dr. Park: I’m not going to say I feel bad for you guys, but it is. Like I said, it’s getting so much harder. I don’t think I would even know what to do with the research project. I mean, yes, did I try to do some things? Absolutely. But I have some mixed feelings about this sort of expectation because you’re doing something just to kind of check a box off to say, yes, I did research. If you’re actually doing research to learn skills about, like, you know, basic statistics or how to do a systematic review, then fine. But to do research, like you really have to have like a decent amount of training and exposure to it. And I think it’s really unreasonable to ask, medical students who have had zero training to be able to do something. Now, that’s where having a really good mentor helps, because if you have a mentor who understands what you know what to do and can give you a reasonable project that you can, you know, either jump onto or help with, I think it’s great. But when you are tagged with a mentor who is not doing that and kind of abandons you and it’s like, okay, you figure it out, that’s where it gets really challenging. So picking your mentor is really important. And I tell medical students this all the time because they reach out to me for, for projects. And sometimes I don’t have anything active where I could have them as a lead. But you want to go in with this is what I know how to do – I know how to extract data from my medical chart. That’s a very useful skill that actually takes time to teach someone how to do it. Right. So if you can already do that, you’re really going to be like up higher than a lot of other students if you know how to organize data into tables, even better. If you know how to read an abstract, you’re getting up the ladder, right? So you kind of see how it takes like several, you know takes several steps to kind of build yourself up. So being able to say like, yes, I want to do research. Fine. That’s great. We love working with eager medical students, but I also need to know what you are capable of doing, because I don’t want to tag you onto something that you’re not gonna be able to do. You’re going to be disappointed because you’re not going to be able to get the project done on time. And then I’m going to be like, I feel bad because I wasn’t able to, give you the mentorship that you needed. So it’s two way street.
33:55 Advice for Those Interested in Surgical Specialties
Annie: On the note of, making yourself a more competitive applicant. Research is one huge thing. And thanks, Amber, for that question. Do you have any advice for students specifically who are interested in surgery? Any concrete advice, technical advice or just what you wish you would have known when you were going through the process yourself?
Dr. Park: Surgery residency, not research, right?
Annie: Yeah.
Dr. Park: Okay. Gosh, my path is so atypical. And maybe that will give some of you guys some hope who had very atypical paths, but I, actually didn’t want to be a doctor. I wanted to, like, work for the CIA. And my parents were not thrilled with that idea. I then tried to pivot and, you know, be in the health policy area because it was kind of similar. Not really. So I did my master’s in public health. I did that for a few years, and I worked for the city in New York City, the Department of Health. Um, and then, you know, I didn’t know I wanted to do surgery. So I got into medical school. I really I was, I was very I was an open book. I really, truly enjoyed everything. And not to say that that was a detriment, but it made it harder for me to decide what I wanted to do. And what I will say is your mentors and your experience and your rotations can change your life. You can have one bad month on a rotation that you thought you were going to love, and it’s going to change. You’re going to change your, your career. Like, oh gosh, I thought I wanted to do this, but now I’m, I don’t. And now you’re thinking, well, what am I going to do now? So kind of thinking about it, like, did I not enjoy this rotation because I just didn’t get well, the people and the culture or whatever? Or is it just like the medicine itself? That’s just not for me, right? So really kind of go into those rotations like, like thinking I want to be an expert in, you know, internal medicine. I want to be an expert in surgery. Like what is the life? Immerse yourself into that and think like, do I like this? Is this what makes me really happy? Right? Like I’m really tired, but am I still really happy? I’m not even thinking about it and it’s like, oh my gosh, it’s already 4:00 in the afternoon. Like the time just flew by. That’s how you know that you really like something. Um, and that’s how I knew that I like surgery because I would wake up at ridiculous hours. And I loved running around the hospital, and I loved helping the interns, and I just, I went home so excited to be able to tell my boyfriend now husband like what I did that day, right? And so, like that excitement when they’re like, oh my gosh, you’re so excited about this. But gosh, you never said anything about your other one. That’s you kind of get a sense of like what is building up to be your career. And so it’s not a great answer, but it was a culmination of things that, you know. The culture, the people, the mentorship, the operations. I mean, everything kind of came together for me.
36:35 Closing: What is One Thing that Brought You Joy Today?
Annie: That’s a fantastic answer. your passion is still so alive and it’s like coming at me in the screen. And I really appreciate that. And this is the a small thing that I like to do with all of our speakers. But the, the actual final note is, what is one thing that brought you joy today,
Dr. Park: Talking to you guys like, I feel like I’m looking at myself, like, you know, 15 years ago. And I wish that I had someone who looked like me that could be telling me this, because then I would feel more comfortable thinking about this path, and not that I was ever really scared, but it took me more time than it should have. And I think if I had seen more mentors who were women, who were surgeons, I don’t I feel like it would have been more clear for me. Um, I don’t regret at all the path that I took because I learned so many things along the way. But I mean, who knows? You guys are so great, and, I’m so excited that you guys are excited about this, too.
Annie: We appreciate that so much. And just for context, for everyone on the call. We actually found Dr. Park through, a leadership committee event last year. It was ‘Preparing for PGY1’, I believe. And you actually met, Dr. Nolan Kagetsu. And he brought you on, and you were so excited to find an organization like APAMSA that was dedicated to this effort. and you’ve been so excited to help us ever since. So, from the bottom of my heart, we really do appreciate your willingness to be here. And thank you so much for all of your insights today.
Dr. Park: Of course, of course.
Annie: So that concludes our September AMA session. Thank you to everyone who attended and for everyone who’s going to listen on the podcast. Please reach out if you have any questions and we really appreciate it. So last round of applause for Doctor Park.
Dr. Park: Thank you guys.