Episode 2 - Ask Me Anything with Dr. Caroline Park
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This episode was produced by Annie Nguyen, Reanna Dona-Termine, and Ashley Tam, hosted by Annie Nguyen, and graphic by Callista Wu and Claire Sun.
Chapters and Time Stamps:
0:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast
0:51 Introduction to Dr. Caroline Park
2:33 The Medical School Train and Fellowship Choices
5:46 Why Trauma Surgery?
7:30 A Day in the Life
9:47 Acute Care Surgery Lifestyle and Scope of Patient Care
12:23 Addressing the Mental and Emotional Stress of Surgical Specialties
15:37 Institutional Efforts to Address Mental Health
17:10 Representation in Surgical Subspecialties
18:38 Carefully Choosing Hobbies: Running, Gardening, Cats!
23:59 Living in Dallas
25:00 Moving to a New City
26:42 Choosing Where to Live and Finding Community
28:39 Managing Finances
31:16 Pursuing Research and Building Your Skillset
33:55 Advice for Those Interested in Surgical Specialties
36:35 Closing: What is One Thing that Brought You Joy Today?
0:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast
Annie: Welcome everyone to the 2nd episode of the Asian Pacific American Medical Student Association Podcast. From roundtable discussions of current health topics, to recaps of our panels with distinguished leaders in the healthcare field, to even meeting current student leaders within the organization – this is White Coats and Rice. My name is Annie Nguyen, a postbac at Stanford University, and a member of the Leadership Committee at APAMSA. I’ll be your host for today!
This is our Ask Me Anything Series! Each month, we spotlight an extraordinary physician who shares their insights on medicine, life, and everything in between. This is your chance to ask questions, hear their stories, and learn from their incredible experiences. Whether you’re curious about their journey, their day-to-day, or their views on the future of medicine, nothing is off the table. Let’s dive in!
0:51 Introduction to Dr. Caroline Park
Annie: I wanted to first introduce, of course, our guest of honor, Doctor Caroline Park, who specializes in emergency general surgery, trauma and surgical critical care. Her medical career has spanned Boston, New York, Los Angeles and most recently, Dallas, Texas, as she has joined the UT southwestern faculty in 2018. Her research focuses on surgical critical care practices, outcomes in trauma patients, and integrating new technologies. And we’re very lucky to have Doctor Park here with us today. So let’s give her a little round of applause. And before we jump into some questions, Doctor Park, I just wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself further and maybe describe your career, because it does seem like you’ve been, you know, all over the place.
Dr. Park: Yeah, I first of all, I want to say thank you to you guys. I really looked forward to this in our last sort of, interaction. It was wonderful. And I’m just so grateful to be able to do this. I’ve always wanted an opportunity to kind of give back to my community, and I never really quite figured out how to do it. So there you guys are. Just showed up. It was perfect. Perfect timing. Not really much else to add. I this is my first job, um, in Dallas and I’ve loved it. Um, I am a big city girl, and I think that might, you know, come up in some of the questions that maybe some of you guys have. So, uh, to not be afraid to, to kind of pick up and maybe move to another place because you’d be surprised by how much you learn. And, you know, these days it’s really not too it’s not too difficult to, you know, to meet your family and be connected. So, um, be brave.
2:33 The Medical School Train and Fellowship Choices
Annie: I really appreciate that. So could you describe more about what was the driving force between moving to Los Angeles? You were there for a short stint, I think, before the pandemic, and then now you’re in Texas. Was it the job specifically, like trauma surgery?
Dr. Park: Uh, yeah, actually. So, um, one thing that you’ll notice, and I think it sounds like a lot of students here are in medical school. Some of some of you guys might be, you know, applying to medical school. It is almost like a railroad. You kind of get onto the medical school train and it’s, a it’s kind of just goes in one direction. So honestly, the hardest obstacle, the most difficult obstacle, in my opinion, is getting into medical school. There is so much that you have to do these days anyway, right? So observer ships, clinical hours, research all those things in order to make it. And it’s very, very competitive. But once you’re on that train, you know, whether it’s good or bad, you know, you have preferences for where you want to go and it, you know, your fate is to some degree, sort of determined by an algorithm, like a computer, right? Like just how it was for medical school. So it’s kind of the same thing, with fellowship, which is advanced training. So, for example, you know, anyone who wants to go into surgery has to do a surgery residency, right? A general surgery residency. Um, if you want to go into orthopedic surgery, you have to do a residency in orthopedic surgery. However, if you want to go beyond being a general surgeon, which is still a really great job. You would have to do a fellowship. Now that’s more advanced training. That could be anywhere between 1 and 3 years, potentially. And, you know, it could be anywhere from pediatric surgery to surgical oncology to what I do, which is acute care surgery, trauma, critical care. Um, so at that point, you actually have a choice in where you want to be, because these programs now will become a little bit more diverse. So medical school, you have to take the same classes – anatomy, biochemistry, you know, all that stuff. Um, but when it comes to fellowship, there are what I describe as certain flavors. So maybe there’s a fellowship where you want to learn more critical care, or one where you want to operate on really big hernias, and you start to see those differences in those fellowships. So you kind of get a sense of what you want when you’re in residency. Like, I really want to focus on this, so I’m going to look for that place. You have a little bit more control. I guess what I’m trying to say is you get a little bit more control as you’re on that, you know, sort of that train and you can kind of figure out what your destination is going to be. And so that’s what led to me in Los Angeles was I was willing to come out of my bubble. I’ve been, you know, I was born and raised in the Northeast. I’ve survived multiple storms. I was getting tired of the weather. I, I didn’t like the fact that it was always dark when I woke up, and it was dark when I went to bed. Um, and I wanted to just try something different. And I was, I think that was the best decision I ever made. I met a completely different group of people, like, they do things differently, and I had so much fun. So, um, and it’s only a couple of years of your life. You’re not committed to staying out there. So I would highly recommend that you guys kind of go outside your bubble and explore. That way you can look back and say, you know what, I tried everything and I don’t regret it.
5:46 Why trauma surgery?
Annie: For sure. And you’re right, Boston storms are absolutely no joke. So I’m glad that you got some sunshine in LA. In terms of what was, you know, directing your freight train, if we want to call it that. Um, what drew you to trauma surgery or just surgery in general?
Dr. Park: I am very biased because I believe that surgery is the best, because not only do you get to diagnose something, you can treat it either minimally with medications or medical management to like maximum management. Right? So like with a scalpel, I, you know, there’s not a lot of people that can do that. And I think that’s why general surgery is even better, because, I mean, we truly take care of the whole patient. I mean, outside of like, you know, the head and doing bony, you know, bony injuries and things like that. I mean, you know, my scope of practice can be anywhere between taking, you know, an inflamed appendix out of someone to, um, you know, sewing a heart closed after, um, you know, someone got stabbed or shot in the heart to, you know, unfortunately, patients with, you know, really bad, peripheral arterial disease and had diabetic ulcers, and now it’s grown to infection in the amputation. I mean, it’s really wide. Um, and I’m very glad that, you know, we get such rigorous training in residency. The reason why it is five years long is because you have to know your anatomy. And not only that, you have to understand the disease processes. You have to understand, you know, what are the best options for this patient. Right. And then of course, like the last point is like doing the operation, right. The technical part. So I feel so grateful that we can constantly move from, you know, making sure we master all the concepts and the anatomy to like doing the operation and then managing everything else afterwards.
7:30 A Day in the Life
Annie: I think that there is an aspect of diversity here that you’re highlighting, especially in general surgery. And for someone who’s considering specialties that could be overwhelming to them. So to kind of clue them in, could you describe a typical day in your life?
Dr. Park: Absolutely. So, um, let’s say I’ll describe a call day… Okay. So I wake up, um, around six in the morning, which I know sounds very late to you guys because you guys are probably waking up much earlier to go to the hospital and see your patients and pre-ground. Um, but I, I go to I go to work, we do our morning sign out because sign out is very important. We have to talk about all the patients that came in from last night, all the ones that need an operation, you know, other people that are very sick that we need to know about. And we kind of prioritize, you know, what we’re going to do for the day. So for people who love a lot of control and want to know exactly what they’re going to do a few days prior, what I do is probably not the best for them because I literally roll into work and that’s that’s what’s on the list. Um, so but that being said, there are more common things that we do as general surgeons in acute care surgery, and that’s a lot of it is appendicitis, hernias, um, cholecystitis for sure. Um, and some other things, like they’re patients in the ICU intensive care unit who need tracheostomies, feeding tubes, biopsies. I mean, there’s so many things that I could be doing. So between really seven in the morning and seven the next day, I am in the hospital. Um, we get called about patients in the emergency room who might need a surgical, you know, they have a, you know, potential surgical problem. Um, I’m operating. So in between cases, I’m seeing these patients in between cases, um, I’m rounding on patients who are already admitted. And then that, you know, that happens pretty much throughout the whole night. And, um, thankfully, our cases are not very long. Now, some of you may already be in clerkships where you’re operating and standing for long periods of time. Um, I have to say that our cases are not as long as some of the other specialties, like, you know, vascular surgery or surgical oncology, where you’re maybe standing for like six, seven hours or time. Our cases are pretty short, mostly 1 to 3 hours. So I like that. I like the speed. I like being able to move between cases and patients. I prefer more volume of, uh, patients and taking care of them versus like the, you know, the length of the case.
9:47 Acute Care Surgery Lifestyle and Scope of Patient Care
Annie: You mentioned, before the call started, that this is just an interesting week because you’re actually in the ICU. So what is that?
Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so let’s say I’ve recovered from that 24 hour call. I get to go home. Um, I don’t have to go. I do not have to go to work the next day. And, uh, I only take maybe, like, four of those calls a month, so I don’t want people to think like, oh, my gosh, there’s no way I can stay up for that long. You know, every other day. That’s not my life, okay? And I think a lot of people kind of get scared, or intimidated by, by that kind of lifestyle. But it is very, very doable. You just need to kind of pace yourself and, give yourself a break and let yourself recover. So the other sphere of acute care surgery, so there’s three in my mind. There’s emergency general surgery, which is what I basically just described. And then there’s trauma, which is, you know, trauma patients, trauma surgery. And then there’s critical care surgery, which is kind of in the middle. And there’s some people that like to gravitate towards one versus the other. And there are some people that are like a perfect Venn diagram, and they’d like to be just in the middle. And there are other people that really like more of the trauma. I would say I love all of that stuff. I can’t say I prefer more than another. I really do love taking care of trauma patients, but, you know, I love every aspect of it. Surgery is very, unique in that you’re going back to, like, medical school and you are looking at the patient holistically again. You are literally looking at that from head to toe. The neuro-, you know, the neurologic system, the cardiovascular system, pulmonology, GI, you, you know, infectious I mean, literally, we’re looking at every single system and making sure that we are addressing it. If there is an issue, there’s an infection, we’re treating it well, things like that. And I love that part, because it brings me back to all the things that some of you probably wish that you don’t ever have to remember, you know? Um, like things like the coagulation cascade. Right? You’d be surprised. There are certain things you actually do need to remember. The Krebs cycle hasn’t really been very applicable for me, but there are definitely things that, you know, there’s a reason why you learn all these things in medical school, so I love it. And the one thing that people sort of have some I wouldn’t say critical of acute care surgery, but they’re like, you know, you never really get to establish a relationship with the patient. You guys operate and they’re gone the next day. I would say that’s not really the case. I think in the ICU you could, you know, stay with the patient the whole week. That’s enough for me to feel like I have established a relationship with the family, to have rapport, for them to remember me in clinic, that’s good enough for me. I think some people wish for more. I think that’s that’s totally fine.
12:23 Addressing the Mental and Emotional Stress of Surgical Specialties
Annie: That was an incredibly insightful answer, and I think that you provided some really helpful metrics for anyone who might be considering this specialty in particular, such as, you know, preference on hours or volume. One thing is the emotional, and kind of psychological burden that comes with surgery. I think that’s maybe one reason why students will tend to hesitate. Can you describe what that experience has been like for you and how you personally address that?
Dr. Park: I think the biggest thing, and this is not unique to surgery, is being able to talk about things. It’s probably and, you know, I don’t want to make too many stereotypes about being an Asian American, but it’s not a strength that I had growing up was to talk about things. especially with, you know, with my parents, it was all about like, all the good things that you do are positively reinforced and then all the things that you don’t do well or, you know, you would never do that again. or even if you did do well, it was like, well, we kind of expected that. So, you know, like you got an A minus. Why why didn’t you get an A instead of an A-minus? You have to be willing to check your ego and realize that you’re human, and all of that sorrow and stress and tragedy is going to affect you at some point. And if it doesn’t, then I don’t know what to say. If it does, you’re human and it’s totally natural. And I would only expect that. And I hope that you are all surrounded by people who are willing to, like, debrief. Like, for example, if a patient comes in and unfortunately, this happens more often than we want, who comes in, you know, bleeding to death or has been shot. And we’re trying to do our best, but ultimately we can’t save that patient. It is a very hard thing for the medical students to witness, and I try to prepare them in advance. But you can only prepare someone so much. When they go through all that and they see kind of like really, truly how like, I don’t want to say violent, but it’s very it’s very involved. It’s very graphic. Right? It’s real. you can’t just ignore that and just say, okay, well, let’s move on to the next patient. You have to really talk about it. And I think it’s really important. Sometimes you’re busy and you just don’t have the time right now. But I would say if you feel empowered, you should feel empowered. And I hope that the people around you, your residents, your fellows, your staff, you say, you know what, we need to talk about this. So let’s just find some time and talk about this and just open it up and just see what people say. That’s what I would suggest, because at any point in your careers, all of you going into medical school, you will have to deal with death at some point. You will have to deal with something really tragic, and it’s going to affect you in a way that you did not predict. Maybe you won’t be able to sleep at night. Maybe you’re like, running longer and you’re just like, oh my gosh, I didn’t realize running for a whole hour. That happened to me the other day. I guess something was on my mind because I was running for a whole hour. I didn’t realize I’d run like seven miles. I’m like, gosh, I guess something is on my mind. So we all have different ways of kind of coping with that, so find some way to talk about it and some way to, in a healthy way, in some way to cope with it, and also in a healthy way.
15:37 Institutional Efforts to Address Mental Health
Annie: Embracing those really intense, visceral emotions instead of showing them down and pretending like they’re not there. As someone who has moved up in leadership and had various leadership roles, such as a medical director and now an associate professor, have you seen a more positive trend towards having those kinds of conversations, or have you seen institutions, make more of an effort to create those safer spaces for those conversations to be held? Or what work do you feel like needs to be done there?
Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of institutions are heading towards that. If they’re not doing it already, some specialties may, you know, should be doing better than others for sure. I would say that it has to come from your leadership. Because if your leaders are not willing to be open and receive that kind of feedback or have those kinds of open conversations, it’s not going to sort of percolate down, right? All the layers. So it does have to come from the top. And it has to be sincere too, right? Not just like, oh, just drop by my office whenever. Like, no, you have to, you have to be proactive. You reach out to people, you ask them how they’re doing. Right? And it’s not just like, hey, are you doing okay? It’s like, hey, like, you know, how’s your dog doing? Like, I know there was a bad storm and they get really affected by that, like those small things like that, that really that makes a big difference to people. It’s hard because we’re doing, we’re doing the best we can to take care of patients, and that is enough to do. It’s like super exhausting. You’re trying to take care of yourself, and now you’re trying to take care of your coworkers. Like it’s a lot every day, and you sometimes like your best every day. There’s this like, um, it’s not really a mem, but it’s like your best every day is so different. Sometimes it’s like down here and sometimes it’s way up there. That’s the best that you can ask from yourself.
17:10 Representation in Surgical Subspecialties
Annie: For sure. one thing that, just for the sake of transparency and for, everyone on the call who’s maybe trying to figure out a specialty, where do you feel that surgery falls in that spectrum of this willingness to discuss these things? If you have to be brutally-
Dr. Park: I, I’m maybe, I’m just like very, very lucky. But I feel like I’m in an environment where is very transparent and I feel very comfortable. maybe there’s some cultural differences, right? maybe in certain parts of the country, maybe in certain parts of the world. I mean, I hate to say it, but there are definitely some parts of the world where, there’s definitely more male surgeons than women surgeons. There’s not equal representation of, you know, underrepresented minorities. And there has to be a really good, deliberate effort to maintain diversity with excellence. It is not impossible. Um, people are too comfortable with, like, the status quo. And it doesn’t have to be like that. The status quo can be boring, and sometimes it’s not good. it’s not helpful for the people working the patients. All I can say is, when you guys are looking for programs, I mean, obviously most of you are already in medical school, but when you’re looking at residencies and fellowships and it’s something that you really care about, like representation, um, you know, look at the classes, what do they look like? It’s very easy to look at the residencies to see how well represented they are. Where are they coming from? Are they just coming from the same school that they’re associated with? That’s probably not a good sign. right. You want to get people who are from all over the place that are going to bring in new ideas. That’s how you learn.
18:38 Carefully Choosing Hobbies: Running, Gardening, Cats!
Annie: So we’ve touched on some interesting topics of finding community, dealing with difficult things head on. Um, and that is typically done best in community. But there are things that we can do for ourselves to stay grounded. And you had mentioned running as something that is one of your hobbies. I believe you’ve run marathons before. Um, plural, actually, which is insane. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about what you personally like to do to decompress? And maybe we had some specific questions about marathon training, but we can get to that too.
Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that, um, first of all, I never, I actually hated to I hated running when I was smaller when I was a child, and some of you guys don’t. This probably doesn’t even happen anymore. But there was something called the President Fitness Challenge in gym. So yeah, you’re looking at me like this never happened. So you had to, like, do this thing where you had to shuttle between two things. You had to, like stretch, you had to do a pull up. And the only thing I could do was stretch. I was terrible at everything else. I can never do a pull up. I still can’t do a pull up. But it wasn’t until maybe college, or maybe even after college when I was, I actually ran my first 5K. It was for breast cancer awareness and I was hooked after that. And I think I was hooked because it was a time where I was totally not distracted. I didn’t have my cell phone on me. I could just go out and it was my time and I could just focus on me. And that is not easy to find anymore. I know right now you guys probably feel like you have a lot of time, but there will be a time where you have 30 minutes to an hour and you have to be very, very deliberate about what you’re going to do. How are you going to spend that hour? You’re going to spend it on yourself. You spend it on someone else. You can spend something that you like to do or something because you feel like you have to do something else for somebody. So whatever it is, It has to bring you joy. What if in the past you had 20 hobbies, you may only have time for two? So, you know, just pick those things very, very wisely. For me, it’s like the running is easy. I don’t have to go to a gym. I just put on my AirPods, I go outside, I run, I come back, it’s very easy for me to do. Um, so long story short, I never, it was not something I love to do before, it’s something I like to do now. You can always start later in your life. my first marathon actually was in Los Angeles, and I finished it. The good and bad story of that race is that I wanted to run a 5K, but that was not available that weekend. And so I did the marathon thinking, well, if I don’t finish it, at least I tried. And so I finished it and that was awesome. So I don’t think I would ever do that again. Um, I’m not a big marathoner. Like the length is too long for me because I frankly, I just get bored. But, uh, half marathons are a great, great distance.
Annie: Okay. That’s insane. Did you train or you were just you intended to do the 5K, but then you just busted out 26 miles.
Dr. Park: I think I might have run up to nine miles before that, but I never. And this is the thing, like, you would think that as someone who’s like, used to like surgery, training and all the things that build up to being a surgeon, like you would think that I would have a good plan with running. But no, I just, I made up my own plan and it turned out fine, I guess, but I would not advise that. I would advise that you actually adhere to a running plan
Annie: That is deeply impressive. Um, I actually ran a marathon in April, and it was one of the hardest things I had ever done, and that required so much training. And so what.
Dr. Park: But have you ever done, have you done something that was equal, that was less hard and you were like, that was a breeze. Like this was nothing? So hard things put other things in perspective and I do think that that’s why some people push themselves so hard. They do these crazy things, the Spartan races, these marathons, because they’re trying to push themselves to the point where, like, okay, now any other obstacle that comes my way is like, okay, I can do this. I’ve done worse. I’ve been through worse before.
Annie: I actually haven’t realized that until this conversation, but that’s actually been my, the metric in my brain. Like, it can’t be worse than the Big Star marathon. Like it does not – oh, I love this. Okay, so any other hobbies, anything that brings you joy? You said normally it will, you know, whittle down to naturally like 1 or 2 hobbies. Is there anything else that you enjoy outside of running?
Dr. Park: I love gardening. I love like being outside gardening. I have lots of indoor plants. I have lots of outdoor plants. I think I like it because you’re watching something grow from a seed and you can see the direct effects again with surgery, like the immediate effects of if you abandon something, you don’t care of it, care for it, versus actually nurturing something, you know, paying attention to things, picking all the dead leaves off. I mean, all these things, I think, again, no distractions away from work, unrelated, focusing on myself. I think these are all things, whatever it can be for you guys. Right. Um, that can be your, your garden or something that you work on. Oh, I have tons of cats. And for a while during the pandemic, I was trapping, neutering, releasing cats, um, that were just in our community. I have never been a cat person. I’ve always had dogs growing up, and they just there’s this thing called the ‘cat distribution system’. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but they just come into your life. And so that’s what happened to us. And we’re like, we’re like, we have to save these cats. And so sequentially, we all got them, you know, neutered or spayed and released them back. And that was my hobby for a couple of years.
23:59 Living in Dallas
Annie: So all of these things that you’ve discovered in Dallas. So gardening, the cat distribution system, choosing you multiple times. what is it like living in Dallas? Is it easy to grow plants? Is the the cat distribution system more tame now?
Dr. Park: I think I feel like I have, um, affected the colony and at least in our neighborhood. So that that’s a good thing. I think I’ve impacted the ecosystem here because of that. I mean, it’s hot, like, I don’t I’m not gonna lie. Like, come from the northeast. It’s hot. But, you know, you just adjust. You just wake up earlier, you go running in the morning, you go running at night, you can grow things. And that the whole caveat here is like, grow things that are indigenous to this area. Right. Like and that’s the other thing I learned like don’t expect to be able to, you know, plant hydrangeas in the middle of the summer and expect them to survive. They’re just not used to that. And, you know, I’ve learned so much about the acidity of the soil and like all these things that I never learned. But that’s how you learn, right? You make mistakes. You make mistakes by planting something to late in the summer. It’s too hot. Um, so yes, I have tomatoes that I’ve grown, um, I have grown like my mom’s favorite flowers. Herbs lately.
25:00 Moving to a New City
Annie: I’m seeing consistent openness to trying new things. It seems like there is no problem with you trying something new, no matter what stage you are in your life. and that definitely seems to have helped you with all these different moves. Is there a ritual or like something that you like to do when you get to a new city? Um, especially for, you know, people who are going through transitions right now, what makes it easier to really immerse yourself in a new place?
Dr. Park: Yeah. This is not going to surprise you at all, but the first thing I do when I’m in a new city is I go running. I literally just I go running, I find the nearest river park, whatever, and I just explore. I think it’s a great way to see the city. You get to see all the sights you’re exercising. Um, so I would highly recommend that. So if you guys are ever going to conferences, um, I would say map out the city. You know, obviously you want to map out a safe route. Um, make sure, because I’ve almost done this before, but like, you run too far out and then you got to run back the whole distance, so you don’t want to make that mistake. Um, you know, and do your research, like, you know, if it’s like Chicago, right? Like, you know, go out to the lake, um, you know, do you want to get that slice of deep dish pizza that everyone, you know, talks about somewhere? So I kind of like to make a little, um, you know, customized itinerary, I guess. That’s another thing I like to do is, when I go traveling, and so I’ll map out a route and say, okay, I’m going to go here. I’m going to, you know, sample this, go to this coffee place, all these kinds of things so you can make it fun and sometimes around conferences or is a little bit of downtime. So I would recommend that you guys do that because it, it can be sometimes a little like, overwhelming to be in a giant conference with tons of people and just be in, you know, in a suit all day in an air conditioned environment, like go outside, get some fresh air, explore.
26:42 Choosing Where to Live and Finding Community
Annie: Perfect. And on that note, we actually have a question in the chat from Stephanie
Stephanie: Have you found it difficult to build community within each city that you’ve moved to? And then how have you, like, navigated trying to find community?
Dr. Park: That’s a really great question. I feel like I have thankfully been able to kind of choose the, like my most recent cities, so that I’m not in a situation where I really feel isolated. Now, I’ll put that in context. I’m a big city person. and when I was looking for a job, one of my specifications was I had to be in a big city. I know it sounds really silly, but as soon as I started to narrow down my job search, I started to look at how many Korean restaurants and H-Marts that were. Is it very important to me that I have access to kimchi once in a month. And I can’t explain why it’s so important to me, but it just is. Um, it’s important for me to have access to that. And one job just it checked all the boxes off. It was wonderful. The people were great. The mentorship was going to be amazing. I was going to have some great opportunities. There just wasn’t diversity there. And to me, it was not worth it. I felt that I could build those things and find those opportunities and be in a city where I would feel more represented, I guess. But, in a place like Dallas, like, I think it is relatively easy to find those pockets, right? So whether it’s like, you know, your culture, your food, your religion, um, you may have to try a little bit harder if you’re in a smaller place, but I’d say, like if you’re really committed and like things are really important to you and you’re looking at residencies or fellowships or even jobs you have, I make a list. I’m a big Excel geek. I look at my top three things that are non-negotiable things. Big city. Right. Diversity, and whatever my top third one was. Right. And if that if the program didn’t meet it, then I had to rank it lower.
28:39 Managing Finances
Annie: One other thing that has come up, for our students in navigating these transition periods, is just finances. And so people will range from having a lot of student loans to maybe not at all. do you have any financial tips that you would offer to medical students and residents, especially ones who might be trying to figure out their next big step?
Dr. Park: One of the things that really, um, used to bother me was when people are like, just don’t have your latte in the morning, just stop eating avocado toast, right? If those things bring you joy and it makes you more productive as a student, as a resident. Then, no, you get the latte and you get the avocado toast, right. There are certain areas where you can be more frugal, and there are other areas where you feel like there is more benefit. So for example, if it’s like, you know, sitting in a coffee shop every day and spending $10 on something so that you can really, truly study well and, you know, get through all your slides and do your work, then I’d say, yes, that’s that’s a great investment. But if you are, if you have multiple subscriptions to services and, you never use your Netflix or whatever it is, then maybe you need to start kind of looking at that, like, really take a look at your balance and see, like, do I use ClassPass or do I go to this gym? It’s kind of like purging your closet. You kind of have to take a good look at like what you don’t need and just let it go. Obviously that’s not going to take care of loans. But I would say about loans is, you know, thankfully now at least, I believe a lot of people got some of their loans forgiven, which, was which was great. Um, I still believe in the in the philosophy of living. Um, was it living like a pauper or something like that? Like even when you’re something, whatever, whatever the expression is, even if you have more income as a resident, as a fellow, even as an attending, I would still live frugally. everyone’s, uh, motivation is it’s like, okay, I’m a big, I’m an attending and I’m going to make my I’m going to make a, you know, a big purchase. And I want it to be a nice car or something like that. If it brings you joy, I think that’s great. But just again, be very mindful about like, you know what that means. And budgeting, it’s like budgeting is so boring and so tedious, but is actually really important. So for me it’s like, I don’t like grocery shopping. It’s something I really don’t enjoy. I don’t like going to the supermarket and smelling the peppers and the watermelons and enjoying that experience. It’s not something I like to do. I pay for a delivery service. It’s worth it for me. Just pick, think about the things that make you really happy. If it’s like the Pilates membership that you have and like it makes you feel amazing, it makes you feel energized or productive at work. It’s something you look forward to doing. You should absolutely spend money on that.
31:16 Pursuing Research and Building Your Skillset
Annie: It sounds like it comes down largely to really knowing yourself and making decisions based off of that. I see that Amber, you have your camera on. Did you want to ask a question?
Amber: I do, it’s kind of taking a turn from what you just discussed. a little more technical related to research especially now that medical school applicants and residency applicants have had more and more research each year as it goes by. Do you have any advice for either students who are applying or current students who are interested in either developing the research further, or even just being able to balance it along with our other commitments that we have going on?
Dr. Park: I’m not going to say I feel bad for you guys, but it is. Like I said, it’s getting so much harder. I don’t think I would even know what to do with the research project. I mean, yes, did I try to do some things? Absolutely. But I have some mixed feelings about this sort of expectation because you’re doing something just to kind of check a box off to say, yes, I did research. If you’re actually doing research to learn skills about, like, you know, basic statistics or how to do a systematic review, then fine. But to do research, like you really have to have like a decent amount of training and exposure to it. And I think it’s really unreasonable to ask, medical students who have had zero training to be able to do something. Now, that’s where having a really good mentor helps, because if you have a mentor who understands what you know what to do and can give you a reasonable project that you can, you know, either jump onto or help with, I think it’s great. But when you are tagged with a mentor who is not doing that and kind of abandons you and it’s like, okay, you figure it out, that’s where it gets really challenging. So picking your mentor is really important. And I tell medical students this all the time because they reach out to me for, for projects. And sometimes I don’t have anything active where I could have them as a lead. But you want to go in with this is what I know how to do – I know how to extract data from my medical chart. That’s a very useful skill that actually takes time to teach someone how to do it. Right. So if you can already do that, you’re really going to be like up higher than a lot of other students if you know how to organize data into tables, even better. If you know how to read an abstract, you’re getting up the ladder, right? So you kind of see how it takes like several, you know takes several steps to kind of build yourself up. So being able to say like, yes, I want to do research. Fine. That’s great. We love working with eager medical students, but I also need to know what you are capable of doing, because I don’t want to tag you onto something that you’re not gonna be able to do. You’re going to be disappointed because you’re not going to be able to get the project done on time. And then I’m going to be like, I feel bad because I wasn’t able to, give you the mentorship that you needed. So it’s two way street.
33:55 Advice for Those Interested in Surgical Specialties
Annie: On the note of, making yourself a more competitive applicant. Research is one huge thing. And thanks, Amber, for that question. Do you have any advice for students specifically who are interested in surgery? Any concrete advice, technical advice or just what you wish you would have known when you were going through the process yourself?
Dr. Park: Surgery residency, not research, right?
Annie: Yeah.
Dr. Park: Okay. Gosh, my path is so atypical. And maybe that will give some of you guys some hope who had very atypical paths, but I, actually didn’t want to be a doctor. I wanted to, like, work for the CIA. And my parents were not thrilled with that idea. I then tried to pivot and, you know, be in the health policy area because it was kind of similar. Not really. So I did my master’s in public health. I did that for a few years, and I worked for the city in New York City, the Department of Health. Um, and then, you know, I didn’t know I wanted to do surgery. So I got into medical school. I really I was, I was very I was an open book. I really, truly enjoyed everything. And not to say that that was a detriment, but it made it harder for me to decide what I wanted to do. And what I will say is your mentors and your experience and your rotations can change your life. You can have one bad month on a rotation that you thought you were going to love, and it’s going to change. You’re going to change your, your career. Like, oh gosh, I thought I wanted to do this, but now I’m, I don’t. And now you’re thinking, well, what am I going to do now? So kind of thinking about it, like, did I not enjoy this rotation because I just didn’t get well, the people and the culture or whatever? Or is it just like the medicine itself? That’s just not for me, right? So really kind of go into those rotations like, like thinking I want to be an expert in, you know, internal medicine. I want to be an expert in surgery. Like what is the life? Immerse yourself into that and think like, do I like this? Is this what makes me really happy? Right? Like I’m really tired, but am I still really happy? I’m not even thinking about it and it’s like, oh my gosh, it’s already 4:00 in the afternoon. Like the time just flew by. That’s how you know that you really like something. Um, and that’s how I knew that I like surgery because I would wake up at ridiculous hours. And I loved running around the hospital, and I loved helping the interns, and I just, I went home so excited to be able to tell my boyfriend now husband like what I did that day, right? And so, like that excitement when they’re like, oh my gosh, you’re so excited about this. But gosh, you never said anything about your other one. That’s you kind of get a sense of like what is building up to be your career. And so it’s not a great answer, but it was a culmination of things that, you know. The culture, the people, the mentorship, the operations. I mean, everything kind of came together for me.
36:35 Closing: What is One Thing that Brought You Joy Today?
Annie: That’s a fantastic answer. your passion is still so alive and it’s like coming at me in the screen. And I really appreciate that. And this is the a small thing that I like to do with all of our speakers. But the, the actual final note is, what is one thing that brought you joy today,
Dr. Park: Talking to you guys like, I feel like I’m looking at myself, like, you know, 15 years ago. And I wish that I had someone who looked like me that could be telling me this, because then I would feel more comfortable thinking about this path, and not that I was ever really scared, but it took me more time than it should have. And I think if I had seen more mentors who were women, who were surgeons, I don’t I feel like it would have been more clear for me. Um, I don’t regret at all the path that I took because I learned so many things along the way. But I mean, who knows? You guys are so great, and, I’m so excited that you guys are excited about this, too.
Annie: We appreciate that so much. And just for context, for everyone on the call. We actually found Dr. Park through, a leadership committee event last year. It was ‘Preparing for PGY1’, I believe. And you actually met, Dr. Nolan Kagetsu. And he brought you on, and you were so excited to find an organization like APAMSA that was dedicated to this effort. and you’ve been so excited to help us ever since. So, from the bottom of my heart, we really do appreciate your willingness to be here. And thank you so much for all of your insights today.
Dr. Park: Of course, of course.
Annie: So that concludes our September AMA session. Thank you to everyone who attended and for everyone who’s going to listen on the podcast. Please reach out if you have any questions and we really appreciate it. So last round of applause for Doctor Park.
Dr. Park: Thank you guys.
Episode 1 - A Conversation with Victoria Shi
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This episode was produced by James ‘Jameson’ Chua and Ashley Tam, hosted by James ‘Jameson’ Chua, and graphic by Callista Wu and Claire Sun.
Chapters and Timestamps
00:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast
00:38 Introduction to Victoria Shi
03:39 How and why did you get involved with APAMSA?
05:21 APAMSA accomplishments and highlights
07:06 Impact of mentorship in medicine
08:32 APAMSA role models
10:09 Upcoming events and APAMSA’s National Conference
12:05 Leadership in APAMSA
13:27 Creating initiatives and collaboration in APAMSA National Board
15:24 Advice for attending medical conferences alone
17:30 Choosing Dermatology as a speciality & residency applications
19:49 Dermatology research fellowship
21:11 Dermatology research conferences
21:53 Subspecialties within Dermatology
23:28 Skincare & other misconceptions in Dermatology
25:14 What are you looking forward to in your medical career?
26:22 Relocating for residency and beyond
27:02 Philadelphia & city life
31:23 Rapid fire getting-to-know-you questions
34:08 Advice for pre-medical and medical students
00:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast
James: Welcome everyone to the first episode of the Asian Pacific American Medical Student Association Podcast. As a brief introduction to this pod, we have so many things in store for you for future episodes. From roundtable discussions of current health topics, to recaps of our panels with distinguished leaders in the healthcare field, to even meeting current student leaders within the organization. This is White Coats and Rice. My name is James Chua, second year medical student at Touro University Nevada College of Osteopathic Medicine and the current Fundraising Director at APAMSA. I’ll be your host today and one of the rotating hosts throughout the podcast’s various episode styles.
00:38 Introduction to Victoria Shi
James: On today’s episode, we have with us Victoria Shi, a fourth year medical student at the University of Missouri Kansas City School of Medicine. Victoria is an R&B music lover, coffee enthusiast, and most recently a passionate home cook who specializes in one pot budget friendly meals. Victoria has been on a remarkable journey in medicine. Most recently, she’s been immersed in a year long dermatology research fellowship at Northwestern, expanding her expertise and making strides in a field that she’s passionate about. In 2018, to better connect more deeply with her AANHPI roots, she joined the Asian Pacific American Medical Student Association. Over the last six years, Victoria has become a dedicated leader within the org, serving in multiple roles such as a local chapter president, Region 6 director, alumni co-director, strategy vice president, and now as APAMSA’s national president. In her role, Victoria is committed to building connections between APAMSA’s local chapters, amplifying the voices of underrepresented AANHPI communities, and championing health literacy, and research initiatives. Through her work, she’s found a strong sense of community and joy in uplifting and supporting others. Outside of her studies and advocacy, you’ll likely find Victoria traveling, exploring nature, diving into the food scene in new cities, or enjoying her hobby of cooking and baking. Join us as we dive deeper into her journey, passions, and goals for the future. That was taken out of your bio, if that sounds familiar.
Victoria: Thanks, James, for that introduction. I was like, you’ve done your research. That’s my APAMSA CV right there. I’m honored to be here for the first episode of our APAMSA podcast. Yeah, just happy to be here.
James: Yeah, we’re happy to have you and we cannot thank you enough for being our first guest. I think we have a bunch of questions so our listeners can get to know you better. But I think the most important question of all is, how are we doing today?
Victoria: We’re doing wonderful. We got off an EM shift and yeah.
James: That’s awesome. I haven’t started the battle of rotations and stuff so I can only imagine how tired you must be, but we are very grateful for you to take the time out of your day to be our first guest.
Victoria: I’m happy to be here. I think you’ll enjoy it. I think rotations are just very rewarding. I mean, even if you come home at the end of the day tired, you’re like today I was like immersed in patient care, and just in the thick of it. So I really enjoy the tired when I come back from rotations.
03:39 How and why did you get involved with APAMSA?
James: That’s awesome and really inspiring and I can’t wait to dive more into that. But some of these questions we have, but I think since this whole organization is focused on like, AANHPI healthcare and stuff. I’m just really interested. So six years in APAMSA, right? Why did you join the organization in the first place?
Victoria: Yeah, one of my factors when first getting started with APAMSA is I was really searching for an Asian community when I started my undergrad and into med school. I grew up in Pennsylvania in like Southeastern Pennsylvania. It wasn’t very diverse at all. I was one of the very few Asian Americans in my grade. So when I came to undergrad, and so I did a joint undergrad and med school program. So when I came to UMKC, I saw that we have an organization of APAMSA that celebrates diversity, and people are really, really like, they’re proud of their heritage. And that’s why I initially joined. But after being involved in it for the past six years, I feel like I’ve really found my, like a second family here. I found a community, and that’s what kept bringing me back. We, with the local chapter members, with the national APAMSA family – it just felt like a second home. I also loved our mission too, like on a local scale, whether that’s, it’s just giving back to the AANHPI community. So whether that’s helping with health fairs on a local level, or doing screening events, and then on a national scale, really bringing together the diverse communities, celebrating all the diverse voices, and also just advocating for AANHPI health on a broader scale.
05:21 APAMSA accomplishments and highlights
James: That’s amazing. I mean, with six years of experience, like, what would you say is the most standout thing to you, like that you have done so far? Like when you look back during your time, or maybe even like during residency interviews, like this is the one thing you are definitely going to share with everyone.
Victoria: I think I would say the mentorship programs that we’ve started and carried through. I think one thing, like even amongst all our goals of advocating for health equity, and advancing the health Asian and AANHPI communities, I think what stands out to me is that mentorship runs deep, whether it’s from the alumni to the medical students, the medical students to the pre med students. We’ve, for example, established our big sibling, little sibling program, where we have our national board members mentor pre meds. We also have our like ERAS and residency application programs to help our medical students transition into residency. So amongst all of this, I think what I’m most proud of is that we’re really extending our hand out to the future leaders, the future medical students, the future health professions. And we’re really lifting them up and making them into better, better carers, better providers in the future. And I think that will in and of itself help make for a better patient population.
07:06 Impact of mentorship in medicine
James: Absolutely. It’s definitely that like pay it forward mentality. You know, it’s like, what can I do right now to give back to the future? And I remember like, even in my own experiences, like, I never really got it at first. Why my mentors were always so like, eager to help me, you know, but then they really painted it, you know, they’re like one day if like what I’m doing for you right now helps you make like huge waves in the healthcare community, like whatever position you end up as like, that would be worth it.
Victoria: I agree, I don’t think I would not be like where I am today without all the help of my mentors, and there’s many of them. I when people say it really takes a village now sitting on the other side as a fourth year medical student, you know, applying to residency about to, I mean, about to graduate in a matter of months, I am really thinking back and reflecting on how many people have helped me along the way. There’s been physician mentors, I’ve had there’s been other medical students, other peers, even those in the grades before me, who’ve helped me in all different aspects, whether it was school, whether it was getting involved in leadership organizations, whether it was like getting involved in advocacy, just, you know, guiding me through rotations. So when I look back, there’s definitely a village supporting me and I think that’s what makes me want to pay it forward and help others as well.
08:32 APAMSA role models
James: Would you say there’s somebody like either like a board member from APAMSA or maybe like one of the alumni, like one person you could give a special shout out and talk about your experience with them and how they’ve impacted you?
Victoria: Honestly, there’s been many. I’ve been inspired by all the past presidents, you know, Joyce, Donna, Yingfei, these were all the presidents at some point while I was on board. And I think really seeing their leadership, seeing how much they care about APAMSA and their dedication really inspired me to go forward. But honestly, every national board member that I’ve worked with has inspired me too. Just seeing them like work so hard on their own initiatives, come up with new ideas, make new advances has been inspiring as well.
James: Absolutely.
Victoria: There’s too many. I would spend way too long if I was listing all the people that inspired me.
James: Definitely. I will say, you know, as a director myself, you have definitely inspired my work.
Victoria: Thank you so much. You’re literally doing so much for like we’re just excited by all the new initiatives you have like all the streaming tournaments you’ve had like adding all our merch up, like you’ve done so much as fundraising director and we’re all very proud of you.
10:09 Upcoming events and APAMSA’s National Conference
James: Thank you. Yeah, there’s a lot more in store. Our tenure is like four months left or so for elections. And on that note, is there any like inside scoop you could give our listeners to what we could expect within the next four months? Within the last four months of your presidency? Any new cool things happening in the horizon?
Victoria: I think everyone can expect in the next couple months, we are having our national conference, the first weekend of March in 2025. This will be at Duke. Super excited. The national conference directors have been working hard on this. We have all our speakers lined up and just be on the lookout for the speaker lineup to be posted.
James: Definitely. Yeah, this would be actually my first national conference. I had tickets or I had a ticket to the UNLV conference last year, but I was a little too… I was um, I was a little too shy to go because this would be my first medical conference and I was under the impression that no one from my APAMSA or no one from my medical school would be going. Okay. And so I just didn’t go because I was too shy and like too nervous. Right.
Victoria: What did you do with the tickets?
James: Well, I just had it. I just sort of kept it. But then by the end of the night, all of a sudden I started getting like texts and like Instagram DMs like saying congratulations, but no context. I was like, what’s happening? Did I win the lottery? I was like, what am I missing? And then finally someone like provided context. They were like, oh, you won your position for fundraising director in APAMSA. And then I realized that’s even better than winning the lottery.
Victoria: Awww, that’s so sweet. Were you, were you expecting that? Like was that totally out of left field for you?
12:05 Leadership in APAMSA
James: Right, inside scoop. So when I applied, so for my medical school personal statement, I like talk so much and touch upon so much about the importance of AANHPI healthcare or health disparities and like wanting to improve upon that, you know, like I feel like that’s the dream for so many of us as Asian, Asian Americans. And so I just really, this organization in particular, either at a local level or on a national level, it was my goal to be a leader in some shape or form, you know, like right away I immediately like became the local chapter president at my medical school. But when I applied to the national board, I like had no expectations. And also like if you go back and rewatch that video, there’s a particular like hoarseness to my voice because I actually recorded it while I had strep throat.
Victoria: The dedication.
James: Yeah, but I knew I wanted to apply, you know, and there was actually like, I felt like for me personally in the skillset I bring in my personal background, there was not another position I felt more comfortable for, you know. And so that’s why I sort of just like threw all my marbles in at that one position and here we are. Yeah.
13:27 Creating initiatives and collaboration in APAMSA National Board
Victoria: How have you felt like it’s been for you this year? I feel like harder than expected, like how has it been coming up with the fundraising ideas and you know, having that creative side.
James: You know I, one, I think it was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. I think it’s just it is because, you know, you and Wendy, the External Affairs Vice President, my VP. You guys give me so much leeway and so much freedom to do whatever it is that I want to do to help APAMSA to help raise money and all this and that. So that’s, that’s the easy part, you know. But since I lack creativity, especially when it comes to designs and stuff for the merch, the storefront, that’s why that could be a challenging part for our listener who may want to become the next fundraising director, you know. But having a team behind us, like having that sense of like camaraderie or that sense of teamwork with other board members who have that more creative side to them, you know, like that’s what made my job so much more fruitful than I could ever imagine it to be. And I feel like I don’t know if this position is like really designed in such a way to be so collaborative, but being able to be so flexible in that way, you know, like always like DMing other board members on Slack. Like that’s what really has brought so much fun and so much joy. And like the reason why I want to keep on joining APAMSA because we have like leaders like you making it such like a homey environment or such a familial environment. So yeah, so for any listener who may be interested in joining APAMSA, I would say, yeah, just apply for it, you know, elections in March, lots of positions. We will definitely, we’ll find a space for you. But I have a question for you then. So since you now have heard my story that I was too shy to go to the conference by myself, have you ever gone to a medical conference by yourself or do you have any advice for somebody who is like considering going to one? Being nervous about it?
15:24 Advice for attending medical conferences alone
Victoria: Let me think. Have I gone to one by myself? I at least for the APAMSA ones, we always go, I’ve at least had a few chapter members with me and these days since I’ve been in a APAMSA for so long, it feels like there’s lots and lots of friends there. But I think if you’re attending a medical conference by yourself, don’t be afraid. My advice to you would be everyone like everyone there, the students, they want to connect with other people and there’s lots of other students who are also attending by themselves and want a buddy. So my advice to you would be to go to the breakfast, the lunchtime, the networking sessions, especially amongst the attendees. And if you just chat up the person next to you, 90% of the time, will have a buddy for the rest of the conference. So I think just shaking off the nerves and knowing that people there want to connect with others is very, very helpful. But I’ve experienced the same thing, especially if I’m networking at a conference and there’s someone like an attending or something that I’ve heard a lot about or I’m interested in their research and I want to talk to them, I always get that nervous pit in my stomach too before approaching. Sometimes I just have to make myself do it.
17:30 Choosing Dermatology as a speciality & residency applications
James: Right. Absolutely. And I think that actually is a really good segue into our next topic. Like you know, you have been to research conferences, you have done that networking and I feel like when you’re applying to residency, like that networking and forming those connections, it’s so important. You know, having the right connections can score you the most amazing residency. And on that note, like since you’re a fourth year, have you decided what field of medicine or what specialty of medicine you’re most interested in is yet?
Victoria: I actually applied dermatology this past cycle. So we’re currently in the midst of doing interviews. Still, we interview a little bit late, so we’re still receiving them and a lot of them are scheduled for, you know, December, January, even into February.
James: Yeah. How did you choose dermatology? So you’re a fourth year, at what point in your medical career did you realize like, oh man, like Derm is the one for me, you know?
Victoria: So I realized during second year, we have a free dermatology clinic in Kansas City and I really fell in love when with Derm, when I started volunteering there, I got to see kind of the procedural side of it. I got to see, it’s very, it’s very dynamic specialty. In my opinion, you have to be like, think quickly on your feet. There’s always a lot going on and I really love that about it. But what really sold it for me was this free Derm clinic, we see a lot of underserved patients. A lot of them have really severe skin disease. So I saw how much we’re able to help them, especially that patient population. And I really saw the disparities, the socioeconomic disparities kind of manifest in skin disease. And one thing that I think that I found super special was that we have lots of creative options to help these patients. So this free Derm clinic, we have a special 340B pharmacy. We’re able to get them biologics for like $4 a month, like patients who otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford it. That’s really when I fell in love with Derm, but then I waited until I was done with all my clerkships third year and I still felt that Derm was for me. So that’s when I knew for sure.
James: Yeah, that’s awesome. You must be one very hardworking student because I know how difficult it may be to land a dermatology residency.
Victoria: Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed.
19:49 Dermatology research fellowship
James: No, we believe in you. We’re all listening. All of the listeners, we believe in you. So you also did a one year fellowship, dermatology research fellowship, right? Could you tell us more about that?
Victoria: Yeah, so I did this at Northwestern and my research mainly focused on developing guidelines within dermatology and it involved a lot of multidisciplinary work as well. But I really worked on a few, like for example, guidelines for when to do cosmetic procedures in minors. And it was a multidisciplinary offer of plastic surgeons, pediatric subspecialties, there’s
dermatologists, dermatologic surgeons, medical ethicists. So I really loved working with these different specialties, different groups of people and kind of, I felt some agency in my research getting to really convene the panel, do the literature search, bring the experts together and have them meet consensus and then kind of finalize the guidelines. So just loved the process, love that we’re able to standardize care.
21:11 Dermatology research conferences
James: Has your work brought you to like any cool conferences? Like have you been all over the US for it yet?
Victoria: Actually, I feel very fortunate. I was able to go to quite a few conferences during my research year. So I went to AAD, that’s American Academy of Dermatology. That was in San Diego. I was able to go to the American College of Mohs Surgeons conference in Arizona. I went to the American Society of Lasers in Medical Science. That was in Baltimore. So really did get to travel all over and I’m very, very grateful for that. Met a lot of people, heard a lot of interesting research as well. Very rewarding.
21:53 Subspecialties within Dermatology
James: Definitely. And then you touched on seeing like a variety of different like dermatology, like folks who like specialize in different fields of dermatology, right? Do you know like if you want to subspecialize within dermatology or, because to be honest, like as for me as a second year, I haven’t even gotten close to anything Derm and then also I’m in my little bubble of like, I want to be a future psychiatrist. So I really yeah, so I have really no idea what’s going on in Derm.
Victoria: I’m still undecided. I’m kind of keeping my mind open and I think I’ll decide once I get a little bit more exposure to Derm. But as far as topics within Derm that interest me, I do think medical dermatology, like all the systemic diseases like lupus, scleroderma, like all the skin diseases that have systemic organ manifestations, that stuff interests me because there’s like a lot of, I don’t know, like a lot of the treatments for that are super complicated. You have to be like pretty experimental. So that’s something I’m interested in. I’m not sure yet. As far as the different specialties within Derm, we have Mohs surgery, we have peds Derm, we have dermatopathology, and I think it’s like 50/50 whether people split or not. Like some people just practice gen-derm and others like go on to do fellowship. So undecided, keeping my mind open.
23:28 Skincare & other misconceptions in Dermatology
James: So is there, and so I know skincare is like a huge part of Derm. Is there one misconception, not it doesn’t have to be about skincare, I guess, but like just in general, is there one misconception do you think that you would like to correct upon that many people have about the field of either dermatology or if you want to go very specifically about skincare? Because that’s something everyone can relate to, you know, or like any words of wisdom you have that really should be shared.
Victoria: I think one misconception that people have is that dermatologists just treat acne. They just do cosmetic treatments. It’s all about like looks. And while that there is like a subspecialty of Derm that is cosmetics, the majority of the time we do kind of like I was saying about medical dermatology, Derm is like the intersection of many specialties. We have the opportunity to work closely with rheumatology, say if our patients have inflammatory arthritis like psoriatic arthritis, we have the opportunity to work with allergy, like if patients have like an eczema allergy overlap. So we really are also like a very medical specialty as well. And it’s not just about appearances. We also really help patients in that sense.
25:14 What are you looking forward to in your medical career?
James: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for clearing that up. That is also, I don’t want to say I’ve had that misconception, but you know, I’ve had that thought. But so since residency is in your near future, just right around the corner, I think that leads us to our final topic. And that’s what is something you look forward to in your medical career?
Victoria: I think I really look forward to working in the specialty that I’m interested in. I’m just excited. I’m already envisioning myself as a resident, young attending, getting to start and build those longitudinal relationships with patients. I think that’s so special. One of the reasons I was drawn to medicine in the first place, but I’ve, I’ve been in work with some dermatologists who’ve treated patients from like childhood all the way into adulthood. And that’s so special. I want the same thing. One other thing that I’m really excited to do, we also, we touched a little bit about
this earlier. I’m really excited to work in a mentorship role with medical students and residents. I’ve loved all the opportunities that I’ve had to, you know, work in that capacity. And just excited to like have a career and incorporate teaching in that.
26:22 Relocating for residency and beyond
James: Do you think would you ever go back to South Pennsylvania? South is it or East? Near Philly is what I’m asking.
Victoria: Oh yeah, for sure. I think I’m pretty much open to ending up wherever I do think like the Northeast has this special place in my heart, just cause you know, family’s close by. I really think of myself as a city girl, but after living in the Midwest for six years, I also really like it. So I’d be happy to go anywhere. We’ll find out in March.
James: Definitely. I actually, I don’t have like the exact same trajectory as you, but so for me myself, I grew up in Southern California, right? Okay. So before matriculating into medical school, I was in Philadelphia for two years. Like I was like, I was in center city and like, even so whenever somebody asks me where I’m from or what’s my hometown, I always have to say, yeah, I’m from San Diego and they’re like, oh, so great. But I’m like, no, but I love Philly. I love the city life and that’s like what I am like trying my best to work so hard for so I could place like land a residency in some big city, you know.
27:02 Philadelphia & city life
Victoria: What was like, what were you working in Philly at the time? And also what was your favorite part about living there?
James: Oh, so I moved there to do a post-bac. And so I did Drexel University’s one year special master’s program. And then by the end of the year, I got into a medical school and then I would, but they didn’t let me know until June. And I was like, hmm, with it being Touro, Nevada, I was like, so in other words, I have to pack up my whole life in less than a month, like find roommates, find housing, you know, figure out everything. It was like, or I could just stay in Philly for another year. And so during that bonus year, my like finally free gap year where I wasn’t studying for the MCAT, where I wasn’t studying for classes, where I was just living my life, I worked for Johnson & Johnson as a scientific writer. And so that was really fun seeing the more like seeing the more industry side of medicine and research, you know. And so what I miss most about Philly and what I think really just draws me to city life in general is that, so I lived in like truly the heart of Center City of like Philly, Philly. And so for folks who are like really familiar with Philadelphia, for our listeners who are like from that area, I lived like essentially in Rittenhouse square, you know, so like Chestnut and like whatever, you know, central number, right. And so being able to wake up and then just take the elevator down and walk across the way to like some coffee shop, like being so accessible, everything via walking, you know, and being able to see like the same regular faces throughout the time, like of living in the city, like that’s what made it feel like home despite the hustle and bustle of the city. I feel like that may not be, at least in my experience with something like, you know, Manhattan, like that is such a transient city. Like people are constantly like in and out. Whereas like Philly, like people just live there, you know.
Victoria: Yeah.
James: So I really miss that aspect of just public transport being able to walk everywhere. You know, I remember like living in San Diego or living in Las Vegas, right. There will be a like, we’ll be parked at like a restaurant, like, oh, let’s grab Korean barbecue, right. And then we’ll be like, oh, y’all all down for boba, right. And then it’ll, I’m like, oh, the boba shops a block away, right. And then everybody walks towards their car. And I’m like, you guys, it’s like a three minute walk. And they’re like, oh, it’s a one minute drive. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, guys, I get it though. Yeah.
Victoria: I’ve seen, I feel the same way because I’ve seen both sides in Kansas City. We drive everywhere. So you get kind of spoiled. Like all you have to do is walk not even a hundred feet to your car and you have access to everywhere. But I will say when I was doing rotations in New York, when I was exploring New York, I just love like you get 10,000 steps a day, probably more if you’re exploring out 20,000 steps. So there’s nothing healthier than like living in a city and walking everywhere.
31:23 Rapid fire getting-to-know-you questions
James: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So fingers crossed, let’s end up somewhere great. Absolutely. So that pretty much wraps up all of our main topic questions. So we’re going to end our little podcast with a quickrapid fire questions of this or that questions. Okay. So it’s either A or B and just a silly last minute way to get to know you.
Victoria: You know, I’m so indecisive. So this is going to be, this is going to be hard.
James: Like pretty simple. Okay. It’s pretty like your heart will ust speak for itself. You know? All right. You ready? Yes. All right. I think we know the answer to this one, but city or beach.
Victoria: City
James: Cats or dogs.
Victoria: Definitely dogs. There’s so I’m also allergic to cats. So that was an easy one.
James: Text or call?
Victoria: Call
James: Black or white?
Victoria: Black.
James: Morning or night?
Victoria: Hmm. Definitely a night person. I’m a night owl.
James: Nice. Summer or winter.
Victoria: Summer.
James: I can see that coming from the Northeast. Breakfast or dinner.
Victoria: Love breakfast. Actually brunch is my favorite meal. Eggs, eggs, potatoes. Amazing.
James: Would you rather have the power to be invisible or the power to read minds?
Victoria: I think I like to be invisible. Sometimes you just don’t want to be perceived. And also I think if I have the ability to read minds, it would just be so overwhelming. Just thoughts coming at me from everywhere.
James: Definitely. And then last two questions. Would you rather have $100,000 to spend on yourself or have a million you can only spend on others?
Victoria: I would have a million dollars to spend on others. Just so much more we could do with that.
James: Definitely. And then for our last this or that question, would you rather retake step one or retake the MCAT?
Victoria: Fun fact. So I have never taken the MCAT because our school, the six year program, we don’t have to take that. So I don’t know what that’s like, but I will. But we’ll say I would take that.
James: Take the MCAT?
Victoria: Take the MCAT.
James: Well, that’s a good plug.
Victoria: Yeah. Have you taken step one yet?
James: No, I haven’t.
Victoria: You should survey. I want to see what other people say to that.
34:08 Advice for pre-medical and medical students
James: Yeah. I will let you know for our next – I’ll say this is what Vic said. Well, in that case, that wraps up our this-or-that question. Thank you for your candid honesty. We would like to end the first episode of White Coats and Rice with seeking out advice from you. So what is one piece of advice you’d like to offer someone who’s, you know, either a pre-med or medical student who dreams of getting into medical school or even more importantly, you know, getting to the finish line slash where you’re at as a fourth year medical student?
Victoria: I would say that really trust your own journey. Everyone’s journey is going to be different. If you ask a hundred medical students, all of them will have had different experiences
with whether they took gap years or not, what they did during their gap years, even their journey throughout medical school. So I think one of the biggest things I would say is to stop comparing yourself to others and really trust your own journey. And I heard this quote once and it really stuck with me or more just a way of thinking about things. So one, a resident, I think I heard this on a podcast. She said, “pretend like you’re driving a car, the destination where you want to go, you put that into the GPS, you’re going to get there. Now it’s all about really enjoying the journey itself.” So that really stuck with me. No matter what, like whether your goal right now is to get into medical school or your goal is like, you’re currently thick of applying to residency and you want to get into your dream residency, you’ve already put the destination to your GPS. You’re going to get there. Now it’s about just doing the driving.
James: Definitely. Yeah, that as a second year and as a, you know, somebody who wants to be on like higher leadership of APAMSA, that is definitely something I needed to hear right now. So thank you, Vic, for sharing that.
Victoria: Your destination, Philly.
James: Absolutely. Okay. Well, all right, everyone. That is our APAMSA President, Victoria Shi.
If you have any questions or want to reach out, feel free to email her at president@apamsa.org. Victoria, Vic, it’s been such a pleasure getting to know you better. And we’re so grateful for you for being our first guest on White Coats and Rice. Thank you for sharing your story and inspiring all of us.
Victoria: Thanks so much for having me. First podcast down for me too.
James: As I know, first of many, I’m sure in the future we will definitely be inviting you
to hear more about your story.
Victoria: Thanks, James.
James: Of course to our listeners, we hope you enjoyed today’s episode as much as we did. Don’t forget to tune in next time. And until then take care and keep striving. Catch you all soon. Thank you.
Navigating the Intersectional Bamboo and Glass Ceilings: Empowering Asian American Women in Medical Leadership
Leadership is crucial in medicine, yet it often takes a backseat to technical and academic training. For underrepresented groups in medicine, additional challenges including historical discrimination and stereotypes hinder leadership development even further. Asian Americans in medical leadership are impacted by the phenomenon called the “bamboo ceiling,” which refers to the multifaceted challenges (ranging from cultural differences, systemic bias, ingrained stereotypes, and lack of role models) that prevent Asian Americans from achieving leadership positions. More specifically, Asian American women in particular are challenged by a double ceiling effect by having to overcome both the bamboo ceiling and the glass ceiling (social barrier that prevents women from workforce advancement).
Initially, we wrote these five tips to help Asian American women at any stage of their career to navigate the challenges in developing leadership skills and promoting inclusivity in medical leadership. However, we believe these tips are helpful for all individuals, especially those underrepresented in medicine, looking to advance their leadership skills and enhance allyship in medicine.
Tip 1 – Practice public speaking
Every time I am about to present my patient, no matter how effectively I have pre-charted, my heart rate rises and my hands get clammy. After speaking to some of my residents, I realized the fear of public speaking is nearly universal. And while TEDx speakers seem calm and collected, I have learned that hours of practice and coaching produce those talks we enjoy watching.
Public speaking is a skill that takes time to develop. Take advantage of everyday opportunities, like teaching medical students or presenting at noon conferences or journal clubs, to become more comfortable in front of an audience. Raising the volume of your voice and straightening your posture can also project an air of confidence. Ultimately, what helps calm me down the most is imagining myself having a conversation with a friend and telling a story – about a patient, physiological processes, research – and it becomes more manageable.
Tip 2 – Identify mentors, build relationships, and network with others
Becoming a leader does not only involve yourself; the process humbly involves a team of people who invest in and support your endeavors. Finding your team may seem daunting with various clinical environments, hierarchies in medicine, or perhaps feeling shy or burdensome when approaching potential mentors. However, one such skill to build your network is through learning how to engage in conversations with people from all walks of life. To start, ask about others’ interests and backgrounds to explore commonalities unveiled through conversation. We also find it easy to stimulate discussions with questions such as, “What is an exciting project you are working on?” or “What are your thoughts on [blank] event?”. We also recommend preparing a short 30-second elevator pitch of yourself (your educational background, interests, and goals) to use in the appropriate settings. These conversations may not seem natural at first. However, by practicing with each social opportunity you may have, you will feel more comfortable to humbly approach others and form new relationships.
One fortuitous experience I had was going to a medical conference across the country initially not knowing anyone. I remember grabbing a bagel from the breakfast station and saw another woman sitting nearby and eating alone. I decided to strike up a conversation in hopes of building a connection and friendship. We became friends and, to this day (although living many miles apart), have continued to support one another while working on projects and holding leadership roles in the same Asian American organization.
Tip 3 – Resolve conflicts when necessary
When it comes to conflict resolution, many individuals may struggle with the internal monologue, “Do I speak up? Or, do I keep my head down and stay quiet?” On one hand, many – especially Asian American women – have grown up with the virtue of humility, to “not rock the boat” and take a back seat. However, learning the art of conflict resolution is important and necessary to not only pave the wave for smooth relationships but also can influence team dynamics in the future. Here are some steps that I take to ease my stress before I manage conflict:
- Address the issue early
- Find the right place and right time to converse honestly with the other party
- Use AEIOU (Acknowledge, Express, Identify, Outcome, Understanding)
- I find it helpful to use “I feel/think…” statements to clarify how I feel I have been impacted. Use non-defensive phrases like “I would like…” instead of “I want…”.
- Overall, I try to keep a calm mind and separate the person from the problem.
Tip 4 – Ask for what you deserve and be aware that negotiation is a process
While negotiating a salary may seem more relevant after residency, try to consistently check in with yourself on your short-term and long-term career goals to see if the trajectory you are on will meet them. Also, understand that business is not always a meritocracy. You may be a diligent and hard worker, but you may be selling yourself short by not asking for the compensation or promotions you deserve.
Some actionable items that you can consider doing are recognizing the skills you bring to a team and the deliverables you have produced. Do research on the current job market to know the ballpark range you should be negotiating within. And be patient, as negotiation is a dance between two parties and takes time. Bottom line: Ask or you don’t get, and do not sign the first contract you see!
Tip 5 – Find your work style and that of your colleagues
Understanding you and your colleagues’ work styles can help improve synergy between one another. While there are multiple personality assessment tools, I like to use the “Five-Factor model of personality”, which helps ascertain how you score on each of the Big Five (OCEAN: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism) personality traits. Finding your work style is important for self-reflection. It can be invaluable in knowing your boundaries, especially when it comes to learning when to say “yes” and how to say “no.” And, personality tests can be used as a team-building exercise. As a peer, knowing your colleagues’ work styles can be essential to learn how to collaborate effectively with one another. As a leader, learning your colleagues’ work styles can help assign team roles, set expectations, leverage strengths, and cater to individual work styles.
Conclusion
To the AAWM and individuals reading these tips, we hope that these tips and references provide great resources to help you succeed in your medical career and develop your personal leadership style. Ultimately, we hope that the medical community can come together to break through systemic barriers and cultivate diverse, equitable leadership that enhances patient care and drives positive healthcare outcomes.
Written by APAMSA National Board Members: Sonia K. Scallon, MD; Ellis Jang, BS; Victoria V. Nguyen, BS; Sunny S. Park, MD, MPH; Cynthia X. Pan, MD
A prescription from the next generation of doctors: Vote early
As future medical professionals, we see the real-life consequences of political decisions in emergency rooms, hospitals, and clinics. Despite a growing recognition that voting is directly linked to better health outcomes, however, health professionals are voting at lower rates than the national average. It’s time that we make a change this election.
We see patients denied essential services due to bureaucratic hurdles, such as insurance coverage gaps for life-saving medications or underfunded social and mental health service programs. As medical students and leaders of health in our communities, we have a responsibility to vote—not just for ourselves but for the people we serve.
The American Medical Association (AMA) recognizes voting as a social determinant of health. Communities with higher voter turnout often experience better health outcomes, yet many health care providers, including medical students, face challenges in turning out to vote. Busy schedules, unexpected emergencies, and the demands of our profession can create real barriers. We must break this cycle, and the remedy is early voting. By casting our ballots ahead of time, we can ensure that our voices are heard to better the health of our communities and patients.
Many of us have celebrated our family members finally gaining citizenship, only to see them struggle within a health care system full of obstacles. These are not isolated incidents; they reflect the broader experiences of disinvested communities whose voice at the ballot box can have a meaningful impact. The Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander (AANHPI) communities face the brunt of harmful anti-immigrant narratives, echoing xenophobic sentiments that have long afflicted our communities that contribute to social isolation and negative health outcomes.
Yet, AANHPI advocacy has a rich history in the United States—from Japanese American activist Yuri Kochiyama, who fought for civil rights alongside Black leaders, to Native Hawaiian scholar Haunani-Kay Trask, who advocated for Indigenous sovereignty. In honoring their legacies, we recognize that voting is one of the most powerful tools we have to shape healthier communities and, in turn, a healthier democracy.
At the Asian Pacific American Medical Student Association (APAMSA), the largest student organization of AANHPI medical students and pre-medical students, we’ve made civic engagement a priority this year. Partnering with the non-partisan, non-profit organization Vot-ER we’ve implemented training among our over 4,000 members and participated in programs to help medical professionals get ready to vote and help their patients to vote. Today, we are calling on medical students and professionals, particularly within the AANHPI community and beyond, to close our voter turnout gap by voting early.
Health is always on the ballot, and this election provides a critical opportunity to create a health care system that works for everyone. By voting early, we take an essential first step toward realizing that vision of healthier and more equitable communities. Our role as future physicians extends beyond the clinic walls. During this election season, we must show up—not just for ourselves, but also for our patients and communities. Let’s ensure that our voices are heard by voting early in this and every election.
Make your early voting plan today.
Alexander Le, Annie Yao, and Victoria Shi are medical students.
Find the original posted OpEd here.
Ask Internal Medicine Physician Dr. Marcus Iwane
The Leadership Committee proudly presents Dr. Marcus Iwane, an internal medicine physician dedicated to cultural health and Hawaiian communities. With a deep understanding of the intersection between medicine and heritage, Dr. Iwane is dedicated to ensuring that future generations continue to thrive while honoring their roots. His other passions include fishing, farming, and traveling!
Join us October 3rd for an exclusive Ask Me Anything session where Dr. Iwane will share his insights on health, culture, and the importance of community care. Don’t miss it!
Zoom Meeting ID: 952 5920 8549
Region VIII Conference
APAMSA Region VIII and the UCI APAMSA chapter are ecstatic to invite you to the annual Region VIII Conference hosted at the University of California, Irvine in Irvine. We are excited to host this event, celebrate all backgrounds, and uplift AANHPI communities through our conference “Turning the Tide.” Our theme highlights the shift in narrative towards unity, commemorating diverse backgrounds and perspectives, and acceptance of all. Through this conference, we hope to uphold this goal by hosting influential speakers in the AANHPI sphere, facilitating pre-medical and resident/attending panels, and featuring the research contributions of APAMSA members.
Statement on the Apalachee High School Shooting
On Wednesday, September 4th, 2024, those at Apalachee High School in Winder, Georgia, witnessed a shooting that took the lives of four individuals and injured nine more. This is the 385th mass shooting and the 45th school shooting of the year in the country.
APAMSA remains staunchly opposed to gun violence (Resolution 40.006) and demands stricter gun control, and yet again emphatically states that there is a need for gun reform and control to prevent such acts from occurring. Underaged individuals, especially those with a history of threatening a mass shooting, should not be able to obtain assault weapons. We urge legislators to keep this pressing issue in mind as the 2024 election draws closer, to prioritize their commitment to such reform, and to listen to the voices of their grieving constituents.
We mourn with the nation for the lives lost and interrupted by this tragedy. We offer our support to those affected and we encourage you to reach out if there are specific ways in which we can assist you.
For local support, please contact the Region 4 directors at region4@apamsa.org.
For questions or concerns, please reach out to Nataliyah Tahir at rapidresponse@apamsa.org
Donna Tran, MD, MPH
Network Director
Donna Tran, MD, MPH, is a psychiatry resident at Stanford Health Care. She earned her MD from Michigan State University College of Human Medicine and her MPH from Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. During medical school, she served as the National President of APAMSA from 2021 to 2023. In 2024, she was appointed as the District 10 Representative on the Senior Citizens Commission of the City of San Jose and interned under U.S. Congressman Jimmy Panetta (CA-19). Previously, she worked as a health policy intern in the U.S. Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions (HELP) and presented to President Biden’s Advisory Commission for Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander AANHPI (PAC-AANHPI/WHIAANHPI), advocating for public mental health. Her research focuses on health inequities, leadership, primary care, and advocacy. In her free time, Donna enjoys bouldering,
spending time with her French bulldog, and listening to TED Talks and podcasts.
2024 APAMSA Regional Conference Diversity Travel Grant
National APAMSA is offering a limited number of travel grants to increase participation in the APAMSA National Conference by medical students who are underrepresented and often invisible in the AANHPI narrative in the United States. We currently expect to award 12 individual grants of approximately $100.
More information in the application here and hyperlinked below: tinyurl.com/2024-rc-grant
Apply now!
2024 APAMSA Regional Conferences
We are excited to announce the dates and host schools for the 2024 APAMSA Regional Conferences! We have 7 conferences from August to October with exciting opportunities to learn from speakers, network, and meet other APAMSA members! Keep an eye out for more information for each specific conference. Please reach out to membership@apamsa.org with any questions!