Network Director

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This episode was produced by James Chua and Ashley Tam, hosted by James Chua, and graphic by Callista Wu and Claire Sun.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast

00:26 Introduction to Ashley Tam

03:28 Baking Cantonese Pastries and Buns

07:41 Playing Genshin Impact

11:26 The Journey to Medicine

14:31 Choosing Pathology as a Specialty 

22:24 Clinical Skills in Pathology?

24:50 Why Did You Join APAMSA?

31:05 APAMSA Core Memory

33:21 2023 National Conference Theme

35:07 Wishes for APAMSA’s Future

37:18 Community Impact Week 2025

39:16 What Are You Looking Forward to in Your Medical Career?

41:46 This or That? Questions

45:14 Advice for Pre-Health and Medical Students

00:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast

James: Welcome everyone to the third episode of the Asian Pacific American Medical Student Association Podcast, from roundtable discussions of current health topics to recaps of our panels with distinguished leaders in the healthcare field, to even meeting current student leaders within the organization, this is White Coats and Rice. My name is James Chua, second year medical student at Touro University, Nevada, and the current Fundraising Director at APAMSA, and I’ll be your host for today.

00:26 Introduction to Ashley Tam

James: On today’s episode, we are thrilled to welcome Ashley Tam, an alumnus of Cornell University and current fourth-year medical student at Oregon Health and Science University. Hailing from Oregon, Ashley’s path to medicine is truly inspiring. As the daughter of Chinese immigrants, her upbringing was deeply influenced by the richness of Chinese culture and traditions. However, it wasn’t until her time at Cornell that she fully recognized the importance of her cultural identity and what it plays in her life. In 2020 she began her medical education at OHSU and by her second year, Ashley and her local APAMSA chapter hosted the National Conference at their school themed: Renewal: Out of the Flames, Into the Future. Ashley has worn many hats within APAMSA from National Conference Director to Co-Social Media Director, and now, Communications Vice President. Her dedication to the organization highlights her passion for amplifying AANHPI voices and fostering meaningful connections within the community. Beyond medicine, Ashley’s interests are as vibrant as her professional achievements. Whether exploring Teyvat and Genshin Impact where she boasts over 1300 days of active gameplay, watching anime, or being a proud dog mom to Goji, her spirited Shiba Inu, Ashley embraces life with enthusiasm. Without further ado, join us as we dive into Ashley’s journey, her unique perspectives on medicine, and the vibrant passions that shape her world. Ashley, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Ashley: I’m doing good. Thank you so much. That was a beautiful introduction. I love that.

James: Yeah, I said this in Vic’s as well, but a lot of the stuff is drawn from previous APAMSA bios, so if you don’t recognize that, then you know from I think 20–, year first National Conference.

Ashley: Yeah, that is triggering some memories for sure of like typing that up and submitting it.

James: Yeah, I remember for me, since this is my first year on the National Board, I had no idea what to write for my bio. And I think the example that was given was like, one, written in third person, two, it was very long, and so I was like, oh perfect, let me do something very similar. And then I took the time to read everybody else’s bios, and I was like, hmm, no one else took this approach.

Ashley: Yeah, I– like as Comms VP this year, I definitely go through, you know, everyone’s submissions when they submit their bios, because we need to get that prepared for our website and everything. And it’s really interesting to see the different approaches people have, like some people super, super long and some people like don’t include their hobbies and I reach out to them and I’m like ‘Hey, like what are some fun things you do outside of school?’ Um, so it’s fun to see people’s interpretations of you know, the prompt. 

03:28 Baking Cantonese Pastries and Buns

James: Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of hobbies, one thing that I did want the listeners to learn about you personally is that I remember when we were talking about or like preparing for the podcast, one of the things you mentioned is that you are a baker.

Ashley: Oh yeah. I mean, I’m not like an expert or anything like that.

James: Well in that case what do you think is your favorite thing to bake?

Ashley: Hm. I think, similar to a lot of people, it’s like my baking journey kind of started around the height of COVID because I was like at home. I had a scribing job, but you know, at that time, they were like, you should probably not come in. And so I was at home, my family’s at home, my sister is doing school from home and I’m like I have nothing to do right now because I’m basically waiting for med school to start. and I decided to bake because I don’t like cooking as much because I’m more of a recipes person, and I feel like baking sort of like scratches that itch for me because it’s like a little bit more scientific. You really need to measure things out. And so because we weren’t going out to buy things as much, I decided to make egg tarts. And like I went through like a couple iterations. I mean, not my own recipe, this is other peoples’ recipes. But like the way that I did the recipe, I feel like I messed up a couple times and it didn’t turn out the way I wanted to, but then I really got into baking egg tarts during COVID. Then I pineapple buns as well, and then like the Cantonese cocktail buns which are the like still a milk bread bun but then the inside has like a coconut filling. So I made that sort of in rotation for my family. I’m like, oh, our stock is running low so I’m going to make some more. ‘Cause also I’m a little bit bored so I’m just like keeping up our stock and everyone gained weight over that time because I was baking so prolifically. But those are my favorite things to bake because I never thought that I would, you know, be able to make that at home. It’s always something that we have to go out to the Cantonese bakeries to buy. So it was really cool to be able to sort of provide that for my family at that time.

James:  Absolutely. And I think like, for me personally, I’ve always also and I feel like this is applicable to many people in the science field how they prefer the science of baking to just cooking which I do both but I feel like cooking is a lot more about vibes than anything else. But yeah, when I was reading your description about like all the things you’ve made before, the three items you wanted to highlight. I actually last night and now that I’m finally on winter break. I finally have had the time to do the things that I’ve wanted to do. And one of those things on the top of my list, because when you’re a busy medical student, all you can really focus on is studying, right? One of the things on the top of my list was baking. And so the thing that I made most recently were Bolo Bao inspired. They were inspired cookies though. So it had like the topping of the bolo that makes it look like a pineapple. I guess. Or I…

Ashley: Yeah! Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. Was it successful?

James: I’ll show you a picture and you can be the judge. Um, yeah, it, the base of the cookie was this like brown butter experience. So it was just like, it tasted just like a normal cookie. And so I’m like, now I’m actually right after this about to go to Dim Sum with friends. So I was gonna try like- gonna try like an actual pineapple bun and be like ‘how does actually compare?’ 

Ashley: Yeah. That’s awesome. You should, um when you go you should get the custard filled one. That’s always a fun one.

07:41 Playing Genshin Impact

James: Yeah, and so on a separate note though, something that I wanted to ask more about. So, over 1300 days of Genshin Impact. That’s, for the listeners, I think over four years if the math translates. 

Ashley: It is, yeah.

James: How did that start?

Ashley: That’s a… that’s a great question. I think the launch of the game started, it was in like October 2020. I sort of had my eye on it, but you know, I was in my first year of medical school, I was doing didactics. And I was like, well, I don’t think I have time to like commit to starting a new game. I never played any like Gacha games before, but it just like really interested me. And then, it wasn’t until I think February when we finished one of our blocks we had just taken finals and we had a week off afterwards. And I was like oh, maybe I’m ready now, to like start this game and we’ll see how it goes. And you know, I think I started playing around February of 2021 and like the rest is history. Like, I’ve really liked it when I first started and because I had that week long break I was playing it like a lot and so I got really invested in it when I first started. And then, uh, Genshin is just one of those games where, you know, if you want to be free-to-play you kind of have to invest the time to be able to get the characters that you want and to be able to progress through the game easier, and so ya, because I really liked it I was okay investing that time. And it was like fun to you know, “I have to do dailies, I have to do my weeklies” and then it just becomes part of my list of things to do, not in a bad way. But it’s like, fun to keep up and to be able to feel like I can look forward to the next update and feel like prepared for like the new characters that are going to drop. Like I’ve come very far. And I’m proud of it to some extent. I haven’t spent money on it– my own money. I have had friends who have given me some like a birthday gift or like a Christmas gift. Like here’s like an Apple gift card and like I appreciate it but I haven’t spent my own money so I feel a little bit proud of that.

James: I feel that. Yeah. I used to play Genshin Impact and I also took pride in the fact that I was also a free-to-play player. But then like, eventually it got to the point where I did not get the 5– I lost my 50/50.

Ashley: Ugh, the worst. I think I have, on the poor side of luck with Gacha pulls. It’s like, a little bit upsetting sometimes. But it is how it is, so like I ration my Primos a lot. So I’m like, “I’m going to like hold out and like skip this character” because I know there’s another character that I will want later. I feel like I have relatively good Primo management. And yah. It’s a lot of I guess, self control.

11:26 The Journey to Medicine

James: Yeah. Absolutely. And see the reason why I want to bring up these hobbies and I do this with all of our guests. It’s to sort of show how like, medical students are not simply just, we’re not glued to our textbooks at all times. We are people, we do take care of ourselves in all shapes or forms, whether it’s like baking like you do, gaming like you do, or traveling, like whatever it is that keeps you grounded, you know. And so, I think I’m now very interested, I think our listeners would love to know, how has your journey been to medicine? Like, where did it begin? How did it get to OHSU? Like wherever you want to start personally.

Ashley: Ooh, I think my mom like pulled this out of the storage closet really recently but in first grade there’s like this art thing that our teacher had us do. And it’s like a picture of us and like ‘when I grow up I want to be’, and I had written doctor. So I guess like that’s when it started. Why did I wanna be a doctor at that time? I have no idea. I don’t know who put that idea my head. Is it because I grew up in like, an immigrant Chinese family and, you know, the classics careers that they love their kids to have, it’s like a doctor or lawyer. Something cool like that. I don’t know. But I think when I decided that I really wanted to pursue medicine was just through science classes and being really interested in the human body and like anatomy and like how everything functions about anatomy and physiology was super cool because you’re like wow it makes like total sense like how this works in the body and then it triggers this. And then it’s just like the science of it just makes so much sense, like the logic, and I thought that was really cool. So I think I decided at that time that I really wanted to pursue a career in the human sciences. Um, and I think I always sort of had an interest also in like the molecular side of things, like similarly how the logic of the human body is super cool. Like, I thought the logic and processes of like cells on a molecular level is also super cool. And so I think that’s sort of what, that was like the foundation for me finding interest in pathology because pathology is kind of like a specialty that is very granular and you have to look at like – you know number one it’s very small you’re literally looking under a microscope but there’s a lot of details that go on in pathology. And my love for that probably stems from my love for like details of molecular biology and stuff like that.

14:31 Choosing Pathology as a Specialty 

James: Absolutely. And I actually, it’s interesting, because I would love to learn more about your journey to pathology because as far as I’m aware, you did, it was last year I think? The pathology fellowship, right? 

Ashley: Yes, yes. 

James: Yeah. So for me personally, like, I was actually very interested in pathology. There were only two specialties that I really, like, were leaning towards when I started medical school, leading up to medical school. One was psychiatry and then the other was pathology. And so… 

Ashley: Super different!

James: Very, extremely different. And I think, like, my interest in pathology, stemmed from like, I did a post-bac, they taught it so well there. I also worked in so many research labs and I like that setting, right? Yeah. But then by the time I actually started medical school, I found that the way they approached pathology at my own personal institution made me like lose my spark for it.

Ashley: Oh no!

James: But, it’s fine! I was also in cadaver lab and I realized I didn’t want to do like forensic pathology.

Ashley: Yeah that’s fair.

James: Yeah but maybe you can re-inspire me so could you please tell me and also our viewers more about your junior pathology, post-junior pathology fellowship and how that really – I’m guessing it really affirmed like what you wanted to do.

Ashley: Yeah. I think I came to my decision of specialty a little easier than other students in general, not specifically like just in pathology, but I had exposure to pathology in undergrad actually because I did some shadowing. And like you I had been in some research labs before and I thought like bench work was really cool. And I was thinking, oh, I know what a research lab looks like, what that setting is, like the bench work but I don’t know what goes on in hospital lab and then so I did like some Google searching and I was like, oh pathology, that’s something that exists. And then there’s pathologists that like run the lab, whatever that means. And so I ended up shadowing some pathologists at a hospital that was close to my undergrad campus. And I thought what did was super cool. At that time when I was shadowing I basically sat at the scope with them and they walked me through how they were looking at cases and making diagnoses. Like “oh, this is what I’m seeing on the slide or under the scope”. And they’re showing me like what all the different cells were what all the architecture was, and it was hard to follow along because I didn’t have a lot of histology background, like at all. But I just thought it was cool how they could look at something and make a diagnosis off of it. And that you can actually see what disease looks like under the scope. And then they also use a lot of other tests like there are stains and stuff. And I just thought that, that logic puzzle was super cool because they’re like “okay so if you know this stain is positive and this stain is negative then I can say like it’s probably this diagnosis”. And I thought that was the coolest thing.  And so I already had this. I was already like, inspired by pathology coming into med school. And so, you know, as a good med student, I tried to like, keep all the doors open and keep my mind open to everything that medicine had to offer. At my school I feel like when we had pathology lectures. When the pathologists came and gave us lectures, I was like super inspired by them because they were like super happy it seemed like they really liked what they were doing and they really liked the things that they were teaching. So that was a big plus. I mean, I already have like positive vibes about pathology but interacting with those pathologists I’m like “wow they’re super happy and super excited about what they do”. And eventually, I learned that there was this post-junior or sometimes post-sophomore pathology fellowship at OHSU. And there are, a handful of schools across the country that offer programs like this. But it’s like a completely optional thing, it’s not something you have to do if you want to pursue a pathology residency. There are plenty of people who don’t do that. And then, there are people who do a year in pathology but they go into other specialties. But it’s like, you know, maybe they have an interest in pathology, or they feel like they wanted to take more time to sort of think about what specialty they actually want to apply into and stuff like that. So people have a lot of reasons for doing it. I personally wanted to do it because I had heard from other people that it’s hard to get exposure to what the life of a pathologist is in med school because you know, it’s not a required rotation, there’s not that many elective rotations available to explore pathology and the fact that it’s just so different from the workflow of any of the other specialties. You can’t really get a sense of, a similar sense of what pathology is on a different rotation. So, and I was okay with adding another year, I know that can be a barrier, but I was like, you know what, I think I want to do this because I really want to know what pathology is all about. So I ended up doing that between my third and fourth year of school. And it was awesome because I– because it was between my third and fourth year of school, I had already finished all of my third year core rotations before starting. And so I had already gotten exposure to, you know, generally a lot of other specialties. And then that first month of orientation of my post-junior fellowship, I was like learning how to gross, I was learning how to use a microscope, learning how to write a report. And even in that first month when I wasn’t like really doing anything real. I was like sort of clumsily like trying to figure out like how to be a pathologist. That first month like sealed the deal for me. I was like, I’m definitely going to pathology. This is like so much more fun. I’m like coming away from those days so much more excited. I’m coming home like really wanting to tell my husband like what I did that day. And I felt so good about pathology, like all the other doors are for sure closed at this point. And then the rest of the year was just like super fun because I got to really just like learn what I wanted to do as like my future career. And I think the program was really cool because you essentially get to work like a PGY1 pathology resident. So you’re really integrated into the residents’ schedule, like you staff a service by yourself and sign out one-on-one with an attending. You’re not reporting to your other residents, you’re part of the team. And so it was, it was a really fun experience for sure. And it solidified my love for pathology and it also helped me learn so, so, so much.

22:24 Clinical Skills in Pathology?

James: Absolutely. I’m very interested to hear your thoughts, so one of the things that like, people really brought this up to me. And I feel like it also I feel like it applies to psych or psychiatry in that like, it’s sort of unfortunate that all of the clinical skills like the actual clinical skills like how to listen to heart sounds, it’s sort of like you don’t use it as much in pathology. So I’d love to know what are your thoughts on that?

Ashley: Of like learning clinical skills that I won’t use like as a pathologist?

James: Yeah!

Ashley: Um, I mean, I guess that’s just like the game of med school. Is like, doing a lot of things. or like learning a lot of things that you might not use but are important to explore all that medicine has to offer. I guess it’s just like, you know, a means to an end. So, I guess I never really thought about like “oh there’s all these things that I learned but then like I won’t use it. So I will probably lose the skill later on in life”. Um, but I feel like that’s just the nature of med school and like without having learned, you know, how to listen to heart sounds and stuff like, I wouldn’t have been able to get like that, that full experience of exploring other careers in medicine. So I think I’ll look at it with that perspective. 

James: Yeah, no, so it still was all very useful. Yeah, it’s a very positive outlook, and something I need to remind myself of instead of just saying like, “Oh, it’s all being wasted”.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah. I would agree. I guess I never really thought about that too much. But you know, like when you, when you start clinical rotations, like, maybe there will be something else that like, inspires you. And then it’ll open a door that you didn’t think could be open. So.

James: Absolutely. Yeah, well, we’ll see. I’ll circle back with you in eight months or so. 

Ashley: Yeah, I would love to hear. 

24:50 Why did you join APAMSA?

James: Yeah, and so that– I see like pathology and we’ve talked about your medical school career and the academic portion. But now I want to talk about the extracurricular stuff, and more specifically APAMSA. Let’s start with the beginning. Why did you even join APAMSA in the first place?

Ashley: You kind of touched on that a little bit in my intro. But you know, I didn’t find an Asian community that I, you know, could share. Or like peers. I didn’t find peers that I could really share my heritage with and cultural like nuances with until I got to college and I think it’s because Portland is not a super diverse city. And I did have Asian friends but I think like, my Asian-ness is something I only really appreciated with my family. And I think I never sought out to share that Asian-ness with my friends at that point. But then when I got to Cornell, like even my parents were like, “there’s like so many Asians here”. And they were super surprised about that. And I didn’t know what to expect, moving all the way to the other side of the country. But I actually found like a really large community of just like Asians and like I was actually able to speak Cantonese with with friends for the first time, outside of my family. And so I thought that was really cool. And I think that sort of unlocked something within me I’m like wow this is something that I didn’t realize I was missing but I really really like it. And so I came back to Portland and when I started med school I was like, I want to have that community again. I want to be able to have that community here in Portland. And also I guess I didn’t really interact too much with the Chinese community or the Asian community in Portland, and I thought it would be cool to serve that population here as well. Because I wasn’t really in touch with the community. And so that’s the first season why I joined like the OHSU chapter of APAMSA was to really find that community again and be able to do something with medicine with them. And then that was really fun. I really liked that, being able to have that community to lean on and depend on. But also to connect with outside of school. And then in terms of joining national board, OHSU had won the bid host National Conference. And National Conference directors aren’t elected they’re sort of like selected from the host school. And then so I had this opportunity to participate. And I was super nervous. I was like, you want me to like help run a national conference? That sounds crazy because I’m not really an event planner. I obviously had never planned an event to this scale before and I had a lot of doubts and insecurities and a big lack of confidence but my friends who were other national conference directors. They were like, you know, you should participate in this I think like you’d be a good addition to the team. I was like, okay, we’ll see. And so I became the National Conference Communications Director. And I had so I had so much fun doing that. I didn’t realize that, you know, using my brain like creatively and being like bit artsy. I’m like not a great artist but I do like doing some art. And being able to do that with the National Conference for APAMSA was actually really really fun. And I’m so glad that I had people to support me and give me that confidence boost where I couldn’t give to myself. So I’m super grateful for them pushing me to like get into this role and then you know by the end of the year I was like I want to keep doing more, I want to keep working on the national board, I want to keep working like artistically and creatively. And so I ran for social media director after the National Conference was over. And then, so, I kind of stayed on. And so that was super cool. And I’m really grateful that I have the opportunity to have this position because it’s super fun and I get to work on APAMSA, which, you know, has like the mission and the values that we all want to, that we all like are really behind. 

James: Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely relate to that. Because I think like when people ask me like, why are you so passionate about this organization? I always immediately connect it back to my personal statement. And talking about I want to serve the community I’m a part of. And I feel like there’s no other organization that really does it like APAMSA. 

Ashley: Agree.

31:05 APAMSA Core Memory

James: You know, and so looking back with this very like illustrious career in APAMSA is there one memory since your graduating right? Is there one memory that you’re going to be looking back at very fondly, like wow I did that you know with the rest of the National Board or like with your own efforts or however you want to answer it.

Ashley: Yeah, one core memory that will definitely always stay with me is on National Conference day. It was during the lunch period slash poster session period. All of my National Conference co-directors, we took group pictures in front of our photo booth area. And then I was like – everyone is out and about at that time. Everyone was gathered in the big atrium in the building so like lunch was set up there, the poster session was there. That’s sort of all the events that were going on at that time and so everyone was mingling about. And we were at the photo booth that was set up along the wall. And we’re like taking pictures and then as we’re taking pictures you can just see like the whole scene like everyone gathering, having fun, eating, talking to people about their posters and stuff. And I was like wow I’m so proud of us. And so proud of what were were able to do and to see a year’s worth of work culminate in one day. And to see people enjoy themselves and we’re also enjoying ourselves, yes there’s a little bit of stress, but it was like I felt so much pride in that moment. And like, I was almost tearing up. I was like, I can’t we’re taking pictures but like I felt like the tears I kind of like coming up because I was like just so proud of like what everyone was able to do and like we then took pictures with our committee members and stuff and yeah, I just felt like immense pride in that moment. And also just like I couldn’t believe that I was able to participate in something like this and to help bring something like this to life.

James: That is a really touching story. Are you attending the National Conference? This upcoming one?

Ashley: Yes! I bought my tickets and everything. 

33:21 2023 National Conference Theme

James: And so for our listeners, the next APAMSA National Conference will be hosted at Duke University School of Medicine in North Carolina from March 7 to 9. 2025. Yeah. Hope to see you guys there. But, I actually wanted to ask you one more question about your guys’s National Conference, and it was a little bit ago, but how did you choose your theme? Renewal: Out of the Flames, Into the Future.

Ashley: Oo, that’s an interesting question. I was not the brain behind it. I was sort of the Yes-Woman, I was like this sounds great! It was our National Conference Finance Director, Hannah Moon. She’s a resident now! But yeah, she, I think she came up with this idea. Her and our, actually I think she was the main one behind it. Yeah. And I was like, it sounds great. I love it. And you know, the, my like comms director brain was going and then I was like, oh, out of the flames, a phoenix would be a great logo design and so that’s sort of where I ran with that. But I was inspired by her for the theme and then that’s sort of where our national conference logo came from. 

35:07 Wishes for APAMSA’s Future

James: Gotcha. Yeah. And so on the topic of, you know, out of the flames into the future, now that your time, we cannot thank you enough for your time in APAMSA, but is there something that now that you’re graduating, moving forward onto residency soon enough. Is there something that you hope for, for APAMSA? Something you hope we do for the organization, some sort of change that you want to see, something related to the future of APAMSA, is what I’m asking

Ashley: That’s a great question. I think just like the growth of our organization. Like I think APAMSA offers so much to its members and like there’s so much support that APAMSA can give chapters to create, or host events, participate in health fairs, community screenings, and things like that. And I think those are super valuable experiences. And I would just love to make that available to like a lot of other chapters and so then they can like serve their communities in that way. I feel like APAMSA does a lot to serve the communities that all our chapters are in. And so just like seeing like the growth of our organization to more like more pre-health chapters because like there’s so many opportunities for mentorship. So I would love to see that. And just the growth of our organization so then, you know, we can inspire more students across the country, and then it can also just like serve those communities as well. So I’m like super excited to see that. Yeah.

James: Absolutely. I personally can’t wait as well to see APAMSA keep growing. And I’m sure like all of the hard work we as a national board have done this year will keep the momentum going for next year and so forth.

37:18 Community Impact Week 2025

Ashley: I’m excited for the event that you’re – that you’ve taken a big part in putting together. Your week of service.

James: Oh yes so for listeners let me make sure I get the date right, but what Ashley was referring to is Community Impact Week which happens from Sunday January 26th to Saturday February 1st, 2025. What she’s referring to specifically is that I wanted to create an event that sort of celebrated Lunar New Year through service, through philanthropy, through, you know, being there for the community. And so we’re, we invited every single medical school that is affiliated with APAMSA to volunteer during that week, to sort of show our presence in all of the local communities. Yeah. And so we’re going to be posting more about that as the days roll by. I’m sure by the time this episode is actually posted, it’ll be right around the corner. So I’m sure listeners will have a lot to see but yeah I’m very excited about that too. And I think on the topic of growth, um, in the topic of like how many members there are of APAMSA, like, I think the reason why I thought an event like this should occur is because like, there are over 180 chapters across nine regions of the United States. And I just felt like, even though we are all individual local chapters. It would be a nice opportunity for us to all come together in solidarity to do something for our AANHPI community. I think this really encompasses – also the importance of like, serving, like, of Lunar New Year, you know? It’s not just about celebration, you know, let’s get that good karma going right away. 

Ashley: Yeah, yeah. 

39:16 What Are You Looking Forward to in Your Medical Career?

James: Yeah, I’m very excited about that, but we have about one more month so that’s a little bit in the future. But I wanna talk about something a lot more in the future. And so with you graduating in 2025 and residency being right around the corner, there’s so much to look forward to in your career. You’re going to be a doctor in like less than six months, which is kind of wild. 

Ashley: Oh gosh, I know. That’s crazy. My grandma was just telling me yesterday. She was like I’m going to start calling you doctor, and I was like oh my god. This is crazy

James: What is something you’re especially looking forward to in your medical career? As a doctor i guess.

Ashley:  Um, I guess I from like a medical student standpoint right now. Something I’m looking forward to. It’s just like getting in to my career, like graduating residency and coming out. Most pathologists, I think, will do a fellowship as well. Like 90 something percent of people do a pathology fellowship so after fellowship I’m excited to just be like a competent pathology with the knowledge to be able to sign out cases independently, to be confident. I mean we’re going to be lifelong learners right? But we’re going to come out of training feeling like we can do things for real and not have to run things by someone. And of course there’s always like, you will come across things that are difficult or that you don’t know and will ask your peers. But I’m excited to do the work, to do the work and serve the people and to have the confidence to do that. I’m just like excited to get to that point. We’ve just been learning for so long, training for so long, I want to be the real deal. So that’s what I’m excited for at this point. 

James: Absolutely. And I’m, I know I speak, I can speak for all of APAMSA and all of your friends and colleagues. We are looking forward to you, for you and that very bright future ahead of you. 

Ashley: Thank you. 

41:46 This or That? Questions

James: Yeah, absolutely. And as we come to a close for the podcast. We have two more segments to go through. If you guys, if you took a listen to Vic’s podcast episode, we like to do a quick rapid fire of This or That questions just so we can get to know you a little bit better. Because we know you’re a gamer and you like anime and a baker. But this is just quirky questions, you know A or B, really fast. Are you ready?

Ashley: Yes

James: City or beach

Ashley: City

James: Cats or dogs

Ashley: Dogs

James: Text or call

Ashley: Text

James: Black or white

Ashley: Black

James: Morning or night

Ashley: Night

James: Summer or winter

Ashley: Winter. I feel like I’m a holidays kind of girl, so I feel like that’s when all the fun things happen for me.

James: Fair enough. Breakfast or dinner

Ashley: Dinner? I do like brunch but I feel like dinner options are greater.

James: Mm. Would you rather have the power to be invisible or the power to read minds?

Ashley: Be invisible.

James: Would you rather have $100,000 to spend on yourself or have $1,000,000 that you can spend on others?

Ashley: $1,000,000 to spend on others. There was like this quote I heard that was like “why do I need something” or, “why do I need to have something that I only need to use tomorrow when someone could have that if they could use it today?” So I feel like that’s really stuck with me. 

James: And finally as we are all medical students, would you rather retake STEP1 or retake the MCAT?

Ashley: This is probably controversial but I think I would take STEP1? It’s a longer exam, there’s so much more material that goes on behind it, but like, I feel like in didactics I was able to keep up with board studying and anki through didactics to the point where when I got to STEP1 like after doing practice questions and stuff I went into it feeling pretty chill. And I remember going into the MCAT feeling not chill at all. So I already have the potential to be chill going into STEP1 so I feel like I have the ability to get back there if I needed to.

James: Yeah, absolutely. And I don’t think that’s that outlandish of an answer. Unfortunately, since we’ve only asked this of two people, you and Vic, Vic said that her medical school didn’t require her to take the MCAT. So… 

Ashley: Beautiful. 

James: Yeah. I will keep you posted as we keep asking more and more guests of the pod which one is the more popular exam.

Ashley: I’m excited to keep listening. 

45:14 Piece of Advice for Students

James: Well, in that case, that wraps up our This or That segment. We appreciate your candid honesty. To end all of our one-on-one series for White Coats and Rice, I always like to end it seeking out advice. So Ashley, what is one piece of advice you would like to offer someone in their medical school journey, whether they’re pre-med or someone who’s right in the middle of their didactics or rotations? You know, what is one piece of advice?

Ashley: I would say my piece of advice is to allow yourself to invest in the things that make you happy and fill your cup. I feel like it’s super important if you have hobbies that you really enjoy to really take the time to enjoy those hobbies and do them. I feel like it’s really important to have that outlet and something outside of school and the daily grind. But then in terms of like school related extracurriculars, I think it’s important for people to– like it’s ok to invest more time into an extracurricular that you really like and not as much into something that doesn’t fill your cup as much, that doesn’t inspire you and excite you. Like for example if you really like mentoring and tutoring and you don’t like doing research as much, I feel like it’s okay to spend more time doing tutoring and mentoring. You don’t have to do that research if you don’t want to. I feel like it’s easy to fall into the trap as a student who is reaching for that next step, that next milestone, it’s easy to feel pressure to do everything under the sun to try to get yourself to that next point. And ya, just give yourself grace and allow yourself to do the things you like to do because there’s a lot of required things that we have to do in school, whether it’s– you know you have to do a didactics block or you have to do a core rotation and you’re not going to like everything. It’s impossible to like everything that you’re exposed to in medical school. If you do, then great but I feel like that’s not the case for most people. So because there are all these requirements and the schedule is really tough and you’re always working, I feel like it’s important when you do those extracurriculars to be doing something that still can inspire you and can keep your love for medicine alive and keep pushing you towards that next step. And it’s totally possible to build your CV and to do something you like at the same time have that overlap and be the same thing. I think that’s something that I’ve sort of worked on and I know– I’m sure other people feel the same way. So just know that, I think it’s ok to invest your time into something that you like to do.

James: That was sweet. In any case, thank you, Ashley. It has been such a pleasure getting to know you better. We hope that you keep your cup filled as the rigors of residency are around the corner. We’re so appreciate of you taking the time out of your day to share your story with all of us. To all our listeners we hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did. Don’t forget to tune in next time and regardless of what time you’re listening to this episode, happy holidays and take care!

Listen here:

YouTube
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Apple Podcasts 

This episode was produced by Annie Nguyen, Reanna Dona-Termine, and Ashley Tam, hosted by Annie Nguyen, and graphic by Callista Wu and Claire Sun.

Chapters and Time Stamps: 

0:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast
0:51 Introduction to Dr. Caroline Park
2:33 The Medical School Train and Fellowship Choices
5:46 Why Trauma Surgery?
7:30 A Day in the Life
9:47 Acute Care Surgery Lifestyle and Scope of Patient Care
12:23 Addressing the Mental and Emotional Stress of Surgical Specialties
15:37 Institutional Efforts to Address Mental Health
17:10 Representation in Surgical Subspecialties
18:38 Carefully Choosing Hobbies: Running, Gardening, Cats!
23:59 Living in Dallas
25:00 Moving to a New City
26:42 Choosing Where to Live and Finding Community
28:39 Managing Finances
31:16 Pursuing Research and Building Your Skillset
33:55 Advice for Those Interested in Surgical Specialties
36:35 Closing: What is One Thing that Brought You Joy Today?

0:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast

Annie: Welcome everyone to the 2nd episode of the Asian Pacific American Medical Student Association Podcast. From roundtable discussions of current health topics, to recaps of our panels with distinguished leaders in the healthcare field, to even meeting current student leaders within the organization – this is White Coats and Rice. My name is Annie Nguyen, a postbac at Stanford University, and a member of the Leadership Committee at APAMSA. I’ll be your host for today! 

This is our Ask Me Anything Series! Each month, we spotlight an extraordinary physician who shares their insights on medicine, life, and everything in between. This is your chance to ask questions, hear their stories, and learn from their incredible experiences. Whether you’re curious about their journey, their day-to-day, or their views on the future of medicine, nothing is off the table. Let’s dive in!

0:51 Introduction to Dr. Caroline Park

Annie: I wanted to first introduce, of course, our guest of honor, Doctor Caroline Park, who specializes in emergency general surgery, trauma and surgical critical care. Her medical career has spanned Boston, New York, Los Angeles and most recently, Dallas, Texas, as she has joined the UT southwestern faculty in 2018. Her research focuses on surgical critical care practices, outcomes in trauma patients, and integrating new technologies. And we’re very lucky to have Doctor Park here with us today. So let’s give her a little round of applause. And before we jump into some questions, Doctor Park, I just wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself further and maybe describe your career, because it does seem like you’ve been, you know, all over the place. 

Dr. Park: Yeah, I first of all, I want to say thank you to you guys. I really looked forward to this in our last sort of, interaction. It was wonderful. And I’m just so grateful to be able to do this. I’ve always wanted an opportunity to kind of give back to my community, and I never really quite figured out how to do it. So there you guys are. Just showed up. It was perfect. Perfect timing. Not really much else to add. I this is my first job, um, in Dallas and I’ve loved it. Um, I am a big city girl, and I think that might, you know, come up in some of the questions that maybe some of you guys have. So, uh, to not be afraid to, to kind of pick up and maybe move to another place because you’d be surprised by how much you learn. And, you know, these days it’s really not too it’s not too difficult to, you know, to meet your family and be connected. So, um, be brave.

2:33 The Medical School Train and Fellowship Choices

Annie: I really appreciate that. So could you describe more about what was the driving force between moving to Los Angeles? You were there for a short stint, I think, before the pandemic, and then now you’re in Texas. Was it the job specifically, like trauma surgery? 

Dr. Park: Uh, yeah, actually. So, um, one thing that you’ll notice, and I think it sounds like a lot of students here are in medical school. Some of some of you guys might be, you know, applying to medical school. It is almost like a railroad. You kind of get onto the medical school train and it’s, a it’s kind of just goes in one direction. So honestly, the hardest obstacle, the most difficult obstacle, in my opinion, is getting into medical school. There is so much that you have to do these days anyway, right? So observer ships, clinical hours, research all those things in order to make it. And it’s very, very competitive. But once you’re on that train, you know, whether it’s good or bad, you know, you have preferences for where you want to go and it, you know, your fate is to some degree, sort of determined by an algorithm, like a computer, right? Like just how it was for medical school. So it’s kind of the same thing, with fellowship, which is advanced training. So, for example, you know, anyone who wants to go into surgery has to do a surgery residency, right? A general surgery residency. Um, if you want to go into orthopedic surgery, you have to do a residency in orthopedic surgery. However, if you want to go beyond being a general surgeon, which is still a really great job. You would have to do a fellowship. Now that’s more advanced training. That could be anywhere between 1 and 3 years, potentially. And, you know, it could be anywhere from pediatric surgery to surgical oncology to what I do, which is acute care surgery, trauma, critical care. Um, so at that point, you actually have a choice in where you want to be, because these programs now will become a little bit more diverse. So medical school, you have to take the same classes – anatomy, biochemistry, you know, all that stuff. Um, but when it comes to fellowship, there are what I describe as certain flavors. So maybe there’s a fellowship where you want to learn more critical care, or one where you want to operate on really big hernias, and you start to see those differences in those fellowships. So you kind of get a sense of what you want when you’re in residency. Like, I really want to focus on this, so I’m going to look for that place. You have a little bit more control. I guess what I’m trying to say is you get a little bit more control as you’re on that, you know, sort of that train and you can kind of figure out what your destination is going to be. And so that’s what led to me in Los Angeles was I was willing to come out of my bubble. I’ve been, you know, I was born and raised in the Northeast. I’ve survived multiple storms. I was getting tired of the weather. I, I didn’t like the fact that it was always dark when I woke up, and it was dark when I went to bed. Um, and I wanted to just try something different. And I was, I think that was the best decision I ever made. I met a completely different group of people, like, they do things differently, and I had so much fun. So, um, and it’s only a couple of years of your life. You’re not committed to staying out there. So I would highly recommend that you guys kind of go outside your bubble and explore. That way you can look back and say, you know what, I tried everything and I don’t regret it. 

5:46 Why trauma surgery? 

Annie: For sure. And you’re right, Boston storms are absolutely no joke. So I’m glad that you got some sunshine in LA. In terms of what was, you know, directing your freight train, if we want to call it that. Um, what drew you to trauma surgery or just surgery in general? 

Dr. Park: I am very biased because I believe that surgery is the best, because not only do you get to diagnose something, you can treat it either minimally with medications or medical management to like maximum management. Right? So like with a scalpel, I, you know, there’s not a lot of people that can do that. And I think that’s why general surgery is even better, because, I mean, we truly take care of the whole patient. I mean, outside of like, you know, the head and doing bony, you know, bony injuries and things like that. I mean, you know, my scope of practice can be anywhere between taking, you know, an inflamed appendix out of someone to, um, you know, sewing a heart closed after, um, you know, someone got stabbed or shot in the heart to, you know, unfortunately, patients with, you know, really bad, peripheral arterial disease and had diabetic ulcers, and now it’s grown to infection in the amputation. I mean, it’s really wide. Um, and I’m very glad that, you know, we get such rigorous training in residency. The reason why it is five years long is because you have to know your anatomy. And not only that, you have to understand the disease processes. You have to understand, you know, what are the best options for this patient. Right. And then of course, like the last point is like doing the operation, right. The technical part. So I feel so grateful that we can constantly move from, you know, making sure we master all the concepts and the anatomy to like doing the operation and then managing everything else afterwards. 

7:30 A Day in the Life

Annie: I think that there is an aspect of diversity here that you’re highlighting, especially in general surgery. And for someone who’s considering specialties that could be overwhelming to them. So to kind of clue them in, could you describe a typical day in your life? 

Dr. Park: Absolutely. So, um, let’s say I’ll describe a call day… Okay. So I wake up, um, around six in the morning, which I know sounds very late to you guys because you guys are probably waking up much earlier to go to the hospital and see your patients and pre-ground. Um, but I, I go to I go to work, we do our morning sign out because sign out is very important. We have to talk about all the patients that came in from last night, all the ones that need an operation, you know, other people that are very sick that we need to know about. And we kind of prioritize, you know, what we’re going to do for the day. So for people who love a lot of control and want to know exactly what they’re going to do a few days prior, what I do is probably not the best for them because I literally roll into work and that’s that’s what’s on the list. Um, so but that being said, there are more common things that we do as general surgeons in acute care surgery, and that’s a lot of it is appendicitis, hernias, um, cholecystitis for sure. Um, and some other things, like they’re patients in the ICU intensive care unit who need tracheostomies, feeding tubes, biopsies. I mean, there’s so many things that I could be doing. So between really seven in the morning and seven the next day, I am in the hospital. Um, we get called about patients in the emergency room who might need a surgical, you know, they have a, you know, potential surgical problem. Um, I’m operating. So in between cases, I’m seeing these patients in between cases, um, I’m rounding on patients who are already admitted. And then that, you know, that happens pretty much throughout the whole night. And, um, thankfully, our cases are not very long. Now, some of you may already be in clerkships where you’re operating and standing for long periods of time. Um, I have to say that our cases are not as long as some of the other specialties, like, you know, vascular surgery or surgical oncology, where you’re maybe standing for like six, seven hours or time. Our cases are pretty short, mostly 1 to 3 hours. So I like that. I like the speed. I like being able to move between cases and patients. I prefer more volume of, uh, patients and taking care of them versus like the, you know, the length of the case.

9:47 Acute Care Surgery Lifestyle and Scope of Patient Care

Annie: You mentioned, before the call started, that this is just an interesting week because you’re actually in the ICU. So what is that? 

Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so let’s say I’ve recovered from that 24 hour call. I get to go home. Um, I don’t have to go. I do not have to go to work the next day. And, uh, I only take maybe, like, four of those calls a month, so I don’t want people to think like, oh, my gosh, there’s no way I can stay up for that long. You know, every other day. That’s not my life, okay? And I think a lot of people kind of get scared, or intimidated by, by that kind of lifestyle. But it is very, very doable. You just need to kind of pace yourself and, give yourself a break and let yourself recover. So the other sphere of acute care surgery, so there’s three in my mind. There’s emergency general surgery, which is what I basically just described. And then there’s trauma, which is, you know, trauma patients, trauma surgery. And then there’s critical care surgery, which is kind of in the middle. And there’s some people that like to gravitate towards one versus the other. And there are some people that are like a perfect Venn diagram, and they’d like to be just in the middle. And there are other people that really like more of the trauma. I would say I love all of that stuff. I can’t say I prefer more than another. I really do love taking care of trauma patients, but, you know, I love every aspect of it. Surgery is very, unique in that you’re going back to, like, medical school and you are looking at the patient holistically again. You are literally looking at that from head to toe. The neuro-, you know, the neurologic system, the cardiovascular system, pulmonology, GI, you, you know, infectious I mean, literally, we’re looking at every single system and making sure that we are addressing it. If there is an issue, there’s an infection, we’re treating it well, things like that. And I love that part, because it brings me back to all the things that some of you probably wish that you don’t ever have to remember, you know? Um, like things like the coagulation cascade. Right? You’d be surprised. There are certain things you actually do need to remember. The Krebs cycle hasn’t really been very applicable for me, but there are definitely things that, you know, there’s a reason why you learn all these things in medical school, so I love it. And the one thing that people sort of have some I wouldn’t say critical of acute care surgery, but they’re like, you know, you never really get to establish a relationship with the patient. You guys operate and they’re gone the next day. I would say that’s not really the case. I think in the ICU you could, you know, stay with the patient the whole week. That’s enough for me to feel like I have established a relationship with the family, to have rapport, for them to remember me in clinic, that’s good enough for me. I think some people wish for more. I think that’s that’s totally fine. 

12:23 Addressing the Mental and Emotional Stress of Surgical Specialties 

Annie: That was an incredibly insightful answer, and I think that you provided some really helpful metrics for anyone who might be considering this specialty in particular, such as, you know, preference on hours or volume. One thing is the emotional, and kind of psychological burden that comes with surgery. I think that’s maybe one reason why students will tend to hesitate. Can you describe what that experience has been like for you and how you personally address that? 

Dr. Park: I think the biggest thing, and this is not unique to surgery, is being able to talk about things. It’s probably and, you know, I don’t want to make too many stereotypes about being an Asian American, but it’s not a strength that I had growing up was to talk about things. especially with, you know, with my parents, it was all about like, all the good things that you do are positively reinforced and then all the things that you don’t do well or, you know, you would never do that again. or even if you did do well, it was like, well, we kind of expected that. So, you know, like you got an A minus. Why why didn’t you get an A instead of an A-minus? You have to be willing to check your ego and realize that you’re human, and all of that sorrow and stress and tragedy is going to affect you at some point. And if it doesn’t, then I don’t know what to say. If it does, you’re human and it’s totally natural. And I would only expect that. And I hope that you are all surrounded by people who are willing to, like, debrief. Like, for example, if a patient comes in and unfortunately, this happens more often than we want, who comes in, you know, bleeding to death or has been shot. And we’re trying to do our best, but ultimately we can’t save that patient. It is a very hard thing for the medical students to witness, and I try to prepare them in advance. But you can only prepare someone so much. When they go through all that and they see kind of like really, truly how like, I don’t want to say violent, but it’s very it’s very involved. It’s very graphic. Right? It’s real. you can’t just ignore that and just say, okay, well, let’s move on to the next patient. You have to really talk about it. And I think it’s really important. Sometimes you’re busy and you just don’t have the time right now. But I would say if you feel empowered, you should feel empowered. And I hope that the people around you, your residents, your fellows, your staff, you say, you know what, we need to talk about this. So let’s just find some time and talk about this and just open it up and just see what people say. That’s what I would suggest, because at any point in your careers, all of you going into medical school, you will have to deal with death at some point. You will have to deal with something really tragic, and it’s going to affect you in a way that you did not predict. Maybe you won’t be able to sleep at night. Maybe you’re like, running longer and you’re just like, oh my gosh, I didn’t realize running for a whole hour. That happened to me the other day. I guess something was on my mind because I was running for a whole hour. I didn’t realize I’d run like seven miles. I’m like, gosh, I guess something is on my mind. So we all have different ways of kind of coping with that, so find some way to talk about it and some way to, in a healthy way, in some way to cope with it, and also in a healthy way. 

15:37 Institutional Efforts to Address Mental Health 

Annie: Embracing those really intense, visceral emotions instead of showing them down and pretending like they’re not there. As someone who has moved up in leadership and had various leadership roles, such as a medical director and now an associate professor, have you seen a more positive trend towards having those kinds of conversations, or have you seen institutions, make more of an effort to create those safer spaces for those conversations to be held? Or what work do you feel like needs to be done there? 

Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of institutions are heading towards that. If they’re not doing it already, some specialties may, you know, should be doing better than others for sure. I would say that it has to come from your leadership. Because if your leaders are not willing to be open and receive that kind of feedback or have those kinds of open conversations, it’s not going to sort of percolate down, right? All the layers. So it does have to come from the top. And it has to be sincere too, right? Not just like, oh, just drop by my office whenever. Like, no, you have to, you have to be proactive. You reach out to people, you ask them how they’re doing. Right? And it’s not just like, hey, are you doing okay? It’s like, hey, like, you know, how’s your dog doing? Like, I know there was a bad storm and they get really affected by that, like those small things like that, that really that makes a big difference to people. It’s hard because we’re doing, we’re doing the best we can to take care of patients, and that is enough to do. It’s like super exhausting. You’re trying to take care of yourself, and now you’re trying to take care of your coworkers. Like it’s a lot every day, and you sometimes like your best every day. There’s this like, um, it’s not really a mem, but it’s like your best every day is so different. Sometimes it’s like down here and sometimes it’s way up there. That’s the best that you can ask from yourself. 

17:10 Representation in Surgical Subspecialties

Annie: For sure. one thing that, just for the sake of transparency and for, everyone on the call who’s maybe trying to figure out a specialty, where do you feel that surgery falls in that spectrum of this willingness to discuss these things? If you have to be brutally- 

Dr. Park: I, I’m maybe, I’m just like very, very lucky. But I feel like I’m in an environment where is very transparent and I feel very comfortable. maybe there’s some cultural differences, right? maybe in certain parts of the country, maybe in certain parts of the world. I mean, I hate to say it, but there are definitely some parts of the world where, there’s definitely more male surgeons than women surgeons. There’s not equal representation of, you know, underrepresented minorities. And there has to be a really good, deliberate effort to maintain diversity with excellence. It is not impossible. Um, people are too comfortable with, like, the status quo. And it doesn’t have to be like that. The status quo can be boring, and sometimes it’s not good. it’s not helpful for the people working the patients. All I can say is, when you guys are looking for programs, I mean, obviously most of you are already in medical school, but when you’re looking at residencies and fellowships and it’s something that you really care about, like representation, um, you know, look at the classes, what do they look like? It’s very easy to look at the residencies to see how well represented they are. Where are they coming from? Are they just coming from the same school that they’re associated with? That’s probably not a good sign. right. You want to get people who are from all over the place that are going to bring in new ideas. That’s how you learn. 

18:38 Carefully Choosing Hobbies: Running, Gardening, Cats!

Annie: So we’ve touched on some interesting topics of finding community, dealing with difficult things head on. Um, and that is typically done best in community. But there are things that we can do for ourselves to stay grounded. And you had mentioned running as something that is one of your hobbies. I believe you’ve run marathons before. Um, plural, actually, which is insane. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about what you personally like to do to decompress? And maybe we had some specific questions about marathon training, but we can get to that too. 

Dr. Park: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that, um, first of all, I never, I actually hated to I hated running when I was smaller when I was a child, and some of you guys don’t. This probably doesn’t even happen anymore. But there was something called the President Fitness Challenge in gym. So yeah, you’re looking at me like this never happened. So you had to, like, do this thing where you had to shuttle between two things. You had to, like stretch, you had to do a pull up. And the only thing I could do was stretch. I was terrible at everything else. I can never do a pull up. I still can’t do a pull up. But it wasn’t until maybe college, or maybe even after college when I was, I actually ran my first 5K. It was for breast cancer awareness and I was hooked after that. And I think I was hooked because it was a time where I was totally not distracted. I didn’t have my cell phone on me. I could just go out and it was my time and I could just focus on me. And that is not easy to find anymore. I know right now you guys probably feel like you have a lot of time, but there will be a time where you have 30 minutes to an hour and you have to be very, very deliberate about what you’re going to do. How are you going to spend that hour? You’re going to spend it on yourself. You spend it on someone else. You can spend something that you like to do or something because you feel like you have to do something else for somebody. So whatever it is, It has to bring you joy. What if in the past you had 20 hobbies, you may only have time for two? So, you know, just pick those things very, very wisely. For me, it’s like the running is easy. I don’t have to go to a gym. I just put on my AirPods, I go outside, I run, I come back, it’s very easy for me to do. Um, so long story short, I never, it was not something I love to do before, it’s something I like to do now. You can always start later in your life. my first marathon actually was in Los Angeles, and I finished it. The good and bad story of that race is that I wanted to run a 5K, but that was not available that weekend. And so I did the marathon thinking, well, if I don’t finish it, at least I tried. And so I finished it and that was awesome. So I don’t think I would ever do that again. Um, I’m not a big marathoner. Like the length is too long for me because I frankly, I just get bored. But, uh, half marathons are a great, great distance. 

Annie: Okay. That’s insane. Did you train or you were just you intended to do the 5K, but then you just busted out 26 miles. 

Dr. Park: I think I might have run up to nine miles before that, but I never. And this is the thing, like, you would think that as someone who’s like, used to like surgery, training and all the things that build up to being a surgeon, like you would think that I would have a good plan with running. But no, I just, I made up my own plan and  it turned out fine, I guess, but I would not advise that. I would advise that you actually adhere to a running plan 

Annie: That is deeply impressive. Um, I actually ran a marathon in April, and it was one of the hardest things I had ever done, and that required so much training. And so what. 

Dr. Park: But have you ever done, have you done something that was equal, that was less hard and you were like, that was a breeze. Like this was nothing? So hard things put other things in perspective and I do think that that’s why some people push themselves so hard. They do these crazy things, the Spartan races, these marathons, because they’re trying to push themselves to the point where, like, okay, now any other obstacle that comes my way is like, okay, I can do this. I’ve done worse. I’ve been through worse before. 

Annie: I actually haven’t realized that until this conversation, but that’s actually been my, the metric in my brain. Like, it can’t be worse than the Big Star marathon. Like it does not – oh, I love this. Okay, so any other hobbies, anything that brings you joy? You said normally it will, you know, whittle down to naturally like 1 or 2 hobbies. Is there anything else that you enjoy outside of running? 

Dr. Park: I love gardening. I love like being outside gardening. I have lots of indoor plants. I have lots of outdoor plants. I think I like it because you’re watching something grow from a seed and you can see the direct effects again with surgery, like the immediate effects of if you abandon something, you don’t care of it, care for it, versus actually nurturing something, you know, paying attention to things, picking all the dead leaves off. I mean, all these things, I think, again, no distractions away from work, unrelated, focusing on myself. I think these are all things, whatever it can be for you guys. Right. Um, that can be your, your garden or something that you work on. Oh, I have tons of cats. And for a while during the pandemic, I was trapping, neutering, releasing cats, um, that were just in our community. I have never been a cat person. I’ve always had dogs growing up, and they just there’s this thing called the ‘cat distribution system’. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but they just come into your life. And so that’s what happened to us. And we’re like, we’re like, we have to save these cats. And so sequentially, we all got them, you know, neutered or spayed and released them back. And that was my hobby for a couple of years. 

23:59 Living in Dallas

Annie: So all of these things that you’ve discovered in Dallas. So gardening, the cat distribution system, choosing you multiple times. what is it like living in Dallas? Is it easy to grow plants? Is the the cat distribution system more tame now? 

Dr. Park: I think I feel like I have, um, affected the colony and at least in our neighborhood. So that that’s a good thing. I think I’ve impacted the ecosystem here because of that. I mean, it’s hot, like, I don’t I’m not gonna lie. Like, come from the northeast. It’s hot. But, you know, you just adjust. You just wake up earlier, you go running in the morning, you go running at night, you can grow things. And that the whole caveat here is like, grow things that are indigenous to this area. Right. Like and that’s the other thing I learned like don’t expect to be able to, you know, plant hydrangeas in the middle of the summer and expect them to survive. They’re just not used to that. And, you know, I’ve learned so much about the acidity of the soil and like all these things that I never learned. But that’s how you learn, right? You make mistakes. You make mistakes by planting something to late in the summer. It’s too hot. Um, so yes, I have tomatoes that I’ve grown, um, I have grown like my mom’s favorite flowers. Herbs lately. 

25:00 Moving to a New City

Annie: I’m seeing consistent openness to trying new things. It seems like there is no problem with you trying something new, no matter what stage you are in your life. and that definitely seems to have helped you with all these different moves. Is there a ritual or like something that you like to do when you get to a new city? Um, especially for, you know, people who are going through transitions right now, what makes it easier to really immerse yourself in a new place? 

Dr. Park: Yeah. This is not going to surprise you at all, but the first thing I do when I’m in a new city is I go running. I literally just I go running, I find the nearest river park, whatever, and I just explore. I think it’s a great way to see the city. You get to see all the sights you’re exercising. Um, so I would highly recommend that. So if you guys are ever going to conferences, um, I would say map out the city. You know, obviously you want to map out a safe route. Um, make sure, because I’ve almost done this before, but like, you run too far out and then you got to run back the whole distance, so you don’t want to make that mistake. Um, you know, and do your research, like, you know, if it’s like Chicago, right? Like, you know, go out to the lake, um, you know, do you want to get that slice of deep dish pizza that everyone, you know, talks about somewhere? So I kind of like to make a little, um, you know, customized itinerary, I guess. That’s another thing I like to do is, when I go traveling, and so I’ll map out a route and say, okay, I’m going to go here. I’m going to, you know, sample this, go to this coffee place, all these kinds of things so you can make it fun and sometimes around conferences or is a little bit of downtime. So I would recommend that you guys do that because it, it can be sometimes a little like, overwhelming to be in a giant conference with tons of people and just be in, you know, in a suit all day in an air conditioned environment, like go outside, get some fresh air, explore.

26:42 Choosing Where to Live and Finding Community

Annie: Perfect. And on that note, we actually have a question in the chat from Stephanie

Stephanie: Have you found it difficult to build community within each city that you’ve moved to? And then how have you, like, navigated trying to find community?

Dr. Park: That’s a really great question. I feel like I have thankfully been able to kind of choose the, like my most recent cities, so that I’m not in a situation where I really feel isolated. Now, I’ll put that in context. I’m a big city person. and when I was looking for a job, one of my specifications was I had to be in a big city. I know it sounds really silly, but as soon as I started to narrow down my job search, I started to look at how many Korean restaurants and H-Marts that were. Is it very important to me that I have access to kimchi once in a month. And I can’t explain why it’s so important to me, but it just is. Um, it’s important for me to have access to that. And one job just it checked all the boxes off. It was wonderful. The people were great. The mentorship was going to be amazing. I was going to have some great opportunities. There just wasn’t diversity there. And to me, it was not worth it. I felt that I could build those things and find those opportunities and be in a city where I would feel more represented, I guess. But, in a place like Dallas, like, I think it is relatively easy to find those pockets, right? So whether it’s like, you know, your culture, your food, your religion, um, you may have to try a little bit harder if you’re in a smaller place, but I’d say, like if you’re really committed and like things are really important to you and you’re looking at residencies or fellowships or even jobs you have, I make a list. I’m a big Excel geek. I look at my top three things that are non-negotiable things. Big city. Right. Diversity, and whatever my top third one was. Right. And if that if the program didn’t meet it, then I had to rank it lower. 

28:39 Managing Finances

Annie: One other thing that has come up, for our students in navigating these transition periods, is just finances. And so people will range from having a lot of student loans to maybe not at all. do you have any financial tips that you would offer to medical students and residents, especially ones who might be trying to figure out their next big step? 

Dr. Park: One of the things that really, um, used to bother me was when people are like, just don’t have your latte in the morning, just stop eating avocado toast, right? If those things bring you joy and it makes you more productive as a student, as a resident. Then, no, you get the latte and you get the avocado toast, right. There are certain areas where you can be more frugal, and there are other areas where you feel like there is more benefit. So for example, if it’s like, you know, sitting in a coffee shop every day and spending $10 on something so that you can really, truly study well and, you know, get through all your slides and do your work, then I’d say, yes, that’s that’s a great investment. But if you are, if you have multiple subscriptions to services and, you never use your Netflix or whatever it is, then maybe you need to start kind of looking at that, like, really take a look at your balance and see, like, do I use ClassPass or do I go to this gym? It’s kind of like purging your closet. You kind of have to take a good look at like what you don’t need and just let it go. Obviously that’s not going to take care of loans. But I would say about loans is, you know, thankfully now at least, I believe a lot of people got some of their loans forgiven, which, was which was great. Um, I still believe in the in the philosophy of living. Um, was it living like a pauper or something like that? Like even when you’re something, whatever, whatever the expression is, even if you have more income as a resident, as a fellow, even as an attending, I would still live frugally. everyone’s, uh, motivation is it’s like, okay, I’m a big, I’m an attending and I’m going to make my I’m going to make a, you know, a big purchase. And I want it to be a nice car or something like that. If it brings you joy, I think that’s great. But just again, be very mindful about like, you know what that means. And budgeting, it’s like budgeting is so boring and so tedious, but is actually really important. So for me it’s like, I don’t like grocery shopping. It’s something I really don’t enjoy. I don’t like going to the supermarket and smelling the peppers and the watermelons and enjoying that experience. It’s not something I like to do. I pay for a delivery service. It’s worth it for me. Just pick, think about the things that make you really happy. If it’s like the Pilates membership that you have and like it makes you feel amazing, it makes you feel energized or productive at work. It’s something you look forward to doing. You should absolutely spend money on that. 

31:16 Pursuing Research and Building Your Skillset

Annie: It sounds like it comes down largely to really knowing yourself and making decisions based off of that. I see that Amber, you have your camera on. Did you want to ask a question? 

Amber: I do, it’s kind of taking a turn from what you just discussed. a little more technical related to research especially now that medical school applicants and residency applicants have had more and more research each year as it goes by. Do you have any advice for either students who are applying or current students who are interested in either developing the research further, or even just being able to balance it along with our other commitments that we have going on? 

Dr. Park: I’m not going to say I feel bad for you guys, but it is. Like I said, it’s getting so much harder. I don’t think I would even know what to do with the research project. I mean, yes, did I try to do some things? Absolutely. But I have some mixed feelings about this sort of expectation because you’re doing something just to kind of check a box off to say, yes, I did research. If you’re actually doing research to learn skills about, like, you know, basic statistics or how to do a systematic review, then fine. But to do research, like you really have to have like a decent amount of training and exposure to it. And I think it’s really unreasonable to ask, medical students who have had zero training to be able to do something. Now, that’s where having a really good mentor helps, because if you have a mentor who understands what you know what to do and can give you a reasonable project that you can, you know, either jump onto or help with, I think it’s great. But when you are tagged with a mentor who is not doing that and kind of abandons you and it’s like, okay, you figure it out, that’s where it gets really challenging. So picking your mentor is really important. And I tell medical students this all the time because they reach out to me for, for projects. And sometimes I don’t have anything active where I could have them as a lead. But you want to go in with this is what I know how to do – I know how to extract data from my medical chart. That’s a very useful skill that actually takes time to teach someone how to do it. Right. So if you can already do that, you’re really going to be like up higher than a lot of other students if you know how to organize data into tables, even better. If you know how to read an abstract, you’re getting up the ladder, right? So you kind of see how it takes like several, you know takes several steps to kind of build yourself up. So being able to say like, yes, I want to do research. Fine. That’s great. We love working with eager medical students, but I also need to know what you are capable of doing, because I don’t want to tag you onto something that you’re not gonna be able to do. You’re going to be disappointed because you’re not going to be able to get the project done on time. And then I’m going to be like, I feel bad because I wasn’t able to, give you the mentorship that you needed. So it’s two way street. 

33:55 Advice for Those Interested in Surgical Specialties

Annie: On the note of, making yourself a more competitive applicant. Research is one huge thing. And thanks, Amber, for that question. Do you have any advice for students specifically who are interested in surgery? Any concrete advice, technical advice or just what you wish you would have known when you were going through the process yourself? 

Dr. Park: Surgery residency, not research, right? 

Annie: Yeah. 

Dr. Park: Okay. Gosh, my path is so atypical. And maybe that will give some of you guys some hope who had very atypical paths, but I, actually didn’t want to be a doctor. I wanted to, like, work for the CIA. And my parents were not thrilled with that idea. I then tried to pivot and, you know, be in the health policy area because it was kind of similar. Not really. So I did my master’s in public health. I did that for a few years, and I worked for the city in New York City, the Department of Health. Um, and then, you know, I didn’t know I wanted to do surgery. So I got into medical school. I really I was, I was very I was an open book. I really, truly enjoyed everything. And not to say that that was a detriment, but it made it harder for me to decide what I wanted to do. And what I will say is your mentors and your experience and your rotations can change your life. You can have one bad month on a rotation that you thought you were going to love, and it’s going to change. You’re going to change your, your career. Like, oh gosh, I thought I wanted to do this, but now I’m, I don’t. And now you’re thinking, well, what am I going to do now? So kind of thinking about it, like, did I not enjoy this rotation because I just didn’t get well, the people and the culture or whatever? Or is it just like the medicine itself? That’s just not for me, right? So really kind of go into those rotations like, like thinking I want to be an expert in, you know, internal medicine. I want to be an expert in surgery. Like what is the life? Immerse yourself into that and think like, do I like this? Is this what makes me really happy? Right? Like I’m really tired, but am I still really happy? I’m not even thinking about it and it’s like, oh my gosh, it’s already 4:00 in the afternoon. Like the time just flew by. That’s how you know that you really like something. Um, and that’s how I knew that I like surgery because I would wake up at ridiculous hours. And I loved running around the hospital, and I loved helping the interns, and I just, I went home so excited to be able to tell my boyfriend now husband like what I did that day, right? And so, like that excitement when they’re like, oh my gosh, you’re so excited about this. But gosh, you never said anything about your other one. That’s you kind of get a sense of like what is building up to be your career. And so it’s not a great answer, but it was a culmination of things that, you know. The culture, the people, the mentorship, the operations. I mean, everything kind of came together for me. 

36:35 Closing: What is One Thing that Brought You Joy Today?

Annie: That’s a fantastic answer. your passion is still so alive and it’s like coming at me in the screen. And I really appreciate that. And this is the a small thing that I like to do with all of our speakers. But the, the actual final note is, what is one thing that brought you joy today, 

Dr. Park: Talking to you guys like, I feel like I’m looking at myself, like, you know, 15 years ago. And I wish that I had someone who looked like me that could be telling me this, because then I would feel more comfortable thinking about this path, and not that I was ever really scared, but it took me more time than it should have. And I think if I had seen more mentors who were women, who were surgeons, I don’t I feel like it would have been more clear for me. Um, I don’t regret at all the path that I took because I learned so many things along the way. But I mean, who knows? You guys are so great, and, I’m so excited that you guys are excited about this, too. 

Annie: We appreciate that so much. And just for context, for everyone on the call. We actually found Dr. Park through, a leadership committee event last year. It was ‘Preparing for PGY1’, I believe. And you actually met, Dr. Nolan Kagetsu. And he brought you on, and you were so excited to find an organization like APAMSA that was dedicated to this effort. and you’ve been so excited to help us ever since. So, from the bottom of my heart, we really do appreciate your willingness to be here. And thank you so much for all of your insights today. 

Dr. Park: Of course, of course. 

Annie: So that concludes our September AMA session. Thank you to everyone who attended and for everyone who’s going to listen on the podcast. Please reach out if you have any questions and we really appreciate it. So last round of applause for Doctor Park. 

Dr. Park: Thank you guys.

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This episode was produced by James ‘Jameson’ Chua and Ashley Tam, hosted by James ‘Jameson’ Chua, and graphic by Callista Wu and Claire Sun.