Donna Tran was APAMSA’s 2021-2023 National President and is currently a PGY-1 psychiatry resident. In this episode, Donna discusses meeting David Tennant, becoming a City Commissioner, and leaving a legacy in APAMSA.

Listen here:

YouTube
Spotify
Apple Podcasts 

This episode was produced by James Chua and Ashley Tam, hosted by James Chua, and graphic by Callista Wu and Claire Sun.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast

00:24 Introduction to Donna Tran

02:40 Doctor Who and Drag Queens

07:57 Getting Involved in Health Policy

13:11 The Inspiration for Medicine and Advocacy Work

16:35 Why Psychiatry?

20:39 Learning About and Joining APAMSA

25:04 Donna’s APAMSA Legacy

30:32 Debunking Misconceptions of the Medical Field and School

37:07 This Or That? Questions

41:20 Advice for Pre-Health and Medical Students

00:00 Introduction to White Coats & Rice: An APAMSA Podcast

James: Welcome everyone to the fourth episode of the APAMSA podcast. From roundtable discussions of current health topics to recaps of our panels with distinguished leaders in the healthcare field, to even meeting current student leaders within the organization, this is White Coats and Rice. My name is James Chua, second year medical student at Tour University, Nevada, and the current fundraising director here at APAMSA. And I’ll be your host for today. 

00:24 Introduction to Donna Tran

James: On today’s episode. We’re very excited to welcome our first APAMSA alumni guest, Dr. Donna Tran, an inspiring leader in medicine, health policy, and the AANHPI community. A proud daughter of Vietnamese immigrants and a native of San Jose, California, Donna’s journey to medicine refelcts a deep commitment to service, advocacy, and innovation. Donna completed her undergraduate studies at UC Davis, post-bacc program at CSU East Bay, and earned her medical degree at Michigan State University College of Human Medicine. Additionally, she also earned her Master’s of Public Health from Johns Hopkins University. Her impressive career spans public health and federal policy work, including internships with both the US Senate and House of Representatives, as well as a collaboration with President Biden’s Advisory Commission on Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians, and Pacific Islanders. Donna has also served as an appointed commissioner for the City of San Jose’s Senior Citizens Commission. From 2021 to 2023, Donna served as the national president of APAMSA, leaving a lasting legacy through her tireless dedication to amplifying AANHPI voices and creating opportunities for community engagement. Now, a PGY-1 intern, she continues to advocate for health equity and cultural competency in medicine. Outside of her professional achievements, Donna is a proud dog mother to a French bulldog named Boba Princess, seeks to reach new heights not only in medicine, but also with climbing and bouldering, and is a culinary expert, which is distinguished by a Yelp Elite Black Badge. Without further ado, join us as we explore Donna’s incredible journey in medicine, her insights on leadership, and the unique passions that shape her inspiring story. Donna, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

Donna: I’m doing well thank you, just enjoying the last bit of sunlight during Winter.

James: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that came from your many bios on the APAMSA website. Yeah, so if it sounds familiar, that’s where it was all taken from 

Donna: I’m very complimented, thank you.

02:40 Doctor Who and Drag Queens

James: No, we are just so like, we are so excited to have you as our first alumni. Like your story is just so interesting. And I imagine that there are plenty of doctors that have inspired you throughout your time and probably have made you the doctor that you are today. I can probably think of like Dr. B Li or Dr. Jhemon Lee, just to name a few. But there is one doctor I’m very interested to know, like how they have inspired you and that is Doctor Who.

Donna: Oh, oh my gosh, I’m flabbergasted right now. Yes. Doctor Who. I actually got into it because my cousin and my brother started watching the 10th Doctor, David Tennant, back when he first came out in the early 2010s. I’ve heard of Doctor Who. I was like, “Oh, this is some weird British sci-fi thing.” Then they’re like, “Oh yeah, just watch an episode with us.” Then I just got totally hooked. So this was before med school. I actually went to Silicon Valley’s Comic Con and David Tennant was here in San Jose area and I had to pay like $100 to get like a picture taken with him and his autograph. And I told him this was like when I was applying to med school I was like oh yeah I’m like going to medical school like Doctor Who was like you know your characters inspired me so much into becoming like, kind of doctor I wanted to be. And he like, perked up and he’s like, “Oh, brilliant”. And I was like, oh, my god, it was the best moment of my life. So yeah, so I met him in person. He’s amazing. He’s really nice. Like, even though, you know, like 1000 fans are like, going through and taking pictures with him, but he is still my all-time favorite doctor. Doctor Who is still going on now. Give it a watch. Yes, it’s a huge time investment, but I just think it teaches me so much about character in such a good sci-fi sense versus Game of Thrones, which I also love, but it’s like very messed up. So I feel like it’s at least more like nerdy hopeful positive. So yeah, I still watch Doctor Who and I love it so much.

James: Have you? So you still keep up with the most recent seasons of Doctor Who then, ya?

Donna: Yeah. Yes. I know the most recent one was Ncuti, the black doctor, and I haven’t seen the whole thing yet. I know there was a Christmas special that just came out so I have to catch up. But I’ve like caught up like like with the ninth doctor, 10th, and then 11th is Matt Smith, which I think most people know by association of his face. And then you have the 12th doctor, which is an old dude, 13th was a woman, I think her name was Jodie Whitaker. And the 14th now is Ncuti.

James: I think the 12 doctor is Peter Capaldi, right?

Donna: Thank you. Yes, Peter Capaldi. Thank you. Yeah.

James: I’m somewhat familiar with Doctor Who. I remember back in my younger years when I used to be on Tumblr, I would always see Doctor Who content all the time. 

Donna: Oh memes! Memes upon memes!

James: But I really, it’s so, you know, warming, especially for me, personally, as like a queer person to see like how inclusive Doctor Who can be. And especially, that’s why I was curious if you’re keeping up with the latest season because to my knowledge they have not only drag queen but non-binary actor Jinkx Monsoon is one of the um… 

Donna: Oh I love Jinkx! Yes. Yes. I haven’t, no I haven’t seen their episode yet but I also used to watch RuPaul’s Drag Race and I definitely did watch Jinkx Monsoon’s season. But don’t quote me on anything. I just don’t remember anymore but I do know some of the drag queens, they’re amazing.

James: Yeah, of course. And I feel like, that is such an important thing, like the sense of inclusivity. And I also watched a lot of drag race. I think one of my personal biggest accomplishments prior to me joining APAMSA, and I think it sor of led to like why I work towards serving the communities that I do, you know? But um, back in the day when I was at, uh, my undergraduate university, it was the University of San Diego and to our listeners or to you, if you didn’t know, that is a private Catholic institution.

Donna: Oh- I did not, isn’t that the party school?

James: No, that’s San Diego State University.

Donna: Oh, state, thank you. Okay, got it.

James: Yeah, I get that a lot. It’s either, oh, you went to UC San Diego, and I’m like, no, that’s the La Jolla School, and then they’ll be like the party school. But in any case, what I’ve been meaning to say is that, back when I was an undergrad, one of the things that really ruffled a lot of feathers was we hosted a drag show on campus, you know, to amplify queer voices and we would always invite drag queens to host the show, you know? And one of the amazing queens we got to bring through to host the show was Bob the Drag Queen before she won her season. 

Donna: Stop! You met Bob? What?! That’s amazing!

James: They wore the dress they made from the first episode of their season.

Donna: They’re a legend. Yeah. Even I know Bob. Yep. 

07:57 Getting Involved in Health Policy

James: Yeah. But one of the things that I think is particularly special about Bob the Drag Queen that you parallel is how politically involved they are. You know, and I would love to hear more before we dive deep into your journey through medicine. Like what inspired you to do so much policy work? I feel like they’re – for at least for me, so I don’t want to speak for everybody. But I find that there is such an overlap between medicine and policy. But for a lot of folks, they don’t know how to, you know, if they have a passion for both legislation and medicine, how to incorporate the two. And so to see how much you’ve done, like it’s so inspiring and so how did you get started on that? 

Donna: Yeah. So this is going to sound funny. But I used to be like not interested in politics at all. I used to be borderline apolitical prior to med school. I knew that there were elections. I knew Obama won and Bush won before. But I just didn’t, and I don’t know if that’s like an age thing, but when I was younger, I was just very so much in my bubble. And I didn’t know exactly what the three branches of government did years ago and I think medicine comes hand in hand with being involved in the community and advocacy. Like, it’s difficult to remain in that bubble as you progress through your medical journey without opening a few eyes and a few doors. And the reason why I say that is because I knew in med school I – I was obviously happy with the clinical training we getting, that’s what med school does, it pumps you up as a doctor, but I was not happy with what I was taught in terms of population health, in terms of how we can help communities, what does that system look like you know, that’s, you know, beyond your school. And so I actually chatted with the California Surgeon General Dr. Diana Ramos a few months ago, and she told me a really good quote that I still remember to this day. She said that “80% of healthcare happens outside the four walls of your exam room.” And I 100% believe that. And the reason is because if you have patients who can’t afford medications, who can’t afford treatments, who have a very poor diet, they’re in a food desert, right? All of those things contribute to them coming back to see you all the time in the hospital right? Readmission rates are high, etc. And so for me, I wanted to get that experience. And so I wanted to get an MPH and that’s when I started getting a little bit more like learning about politics and about like advocacy, and it really didn’t click for me until I was like in that scene. So when I went to Hopkins, it’s in Baltimore, which is literally across from DC. And really just a geo-like political landscape and opportunities that were there. I was like, you know, I should toss my hat in the ring and like apply for these internships and see where I land. And so I think and I say this to a lot of people all the time, like, “Yes, I’ve had a long CV, but I have probably three times the number of applications and twice the number of rejections.” So nine out of 10 things I apply for, I get rejected from. And that one thing that I applied for and that I did get, I try to learn something from that, or I stick with it and I try to be really good at it. And so for me, wanting to be in that advocacy scene, one, you need to place yourself where the action is. You can’t just say like “I want to learn about this, but I’m just going to sit here and, and read, read”. Reading is great to get knowledge, but if you’re not out there being in, you know, positions of power or getting leadership experiences, it’s not going to help you and it’s not going to help anyone else. And so I think during my APAMSA term, and even now, trying to create a physician organization for Asian Americans, I still have the same mindset. Is to give opportunities, to raise awareness so people can be leaders themselves. So thats the first part, and then I think the second part is just not giving up. And why I say that is because I actually was City Commissioner, like you mentioned when I was actually a med student. I was a fourth year med student and I was a City Commissioner. Not that I Googled who else was, but I would probably soundly say not a lot of people did that, their fourth year med school and I just applied for it. I applied for it on the city of San Jose’s commission board website. It looks like a website from the 90s. I wasn’t even sure if my application was going to some black hole and then my council member called me and said, “Hey congrats, we’re going to appoint you as City Commissioner” and I was just a med student. So never feel like, you know, you can’t do something based on the level of where you’re at, you can do anything at any time. And so those are probably like the two things that I’ve learned on my journey so far in terms of like marrying medicine and advocacy.

13:11 The Inspiration for Medicine and Advocacy Work

James: Truly we don’t have the cameras on right now, but my mouth is a gape. That is so like inspiring to hear. Wow. Would you say your journey in policy work has closely paralleled your career, like the beginnings of your medical journey? Like, so in other words, I’m asking like, how, where did your journey in medicine begin, you know, and how closely did that tie to policy work? If there even is an overlap in the genesis of the Donna Tran medical journey.

Donna: Oddly, I would actually say actually the medical journey began a lot earlier than my advocacy political journey. And that’s because, you know, years ago, my father, my whole family is like OG immigrants. I was born here but they came over like during the Vietnam War. And my dad, long story short, had a brain tumor, was very like, anti feelings, anti mental health, and that just took a toll on our family. And I live in, we’re from San Jose, California, where there’s like a huge number of Asian Americans in general, and just, they just could not find an Asian therapist. It was actually very shocking. Even today if you look at like the AAMC workforce data. There’s, you know, from last year to this year, last year’s Asian physician workforce was 18% and this year was 19%. And sometimes those numbers just don’t make any sense for certain communities that have such a high number of Chinese Americans or Hmong Americans, and there are not enough physicians to serve them. And I’m like literally in Silicon Valley. So I can’t even imagine what a physician desert it is in some areas across America. And so in general, I would say that kind of kick started off my journey in exploring medicine and how I can help families in those areas and similar situations. And then after that, I think the political and advocacy work came a lot later, ’cause I was just like, focused on getting into med school, doing well on my MCAT. When you look at people’s CVs, you’re like, “Oh, wow, they did a lot of things.” I don’t know. At least on my end. I was like very like like one step minded. I was like I gotta get to like post-bacc I gotta get to medical school and then now I’m in residency. And I didn’t believe it like previously but when I would ask leaders the same question like oh, how did you get involved? Or you know how did you get all these opportunities there like number one answer was serendipity and I just would not believe them. But now I get it, I totally get it. You know, you have, like I said, you have to put yourself in places and situations and try to like figure it out like what you’re really passionate about and then just kind of take each experience as it comes along and learn for that. So the advocacy part, I’m still trying to figure it out now. Um, and it’s more advocacy than political. I don’t have any desires right now to run for office. Um, I worked with politicians and it’s, it’s a lot, it’s a lot of hard work. So if you want to run for office, I’m more than happy to help run your campaign. But I’m very happy with doing legislative stuff on my end. 

16:35 Why Psychiatry?

James: Yeah, absolutely. And so something I want to dive a little bit more deeper into and it’s another reason why I look up to you as a role model, but you were touching, talking about earlier about mental health, especially amongst like immigrants, Asian immigrants. It’s not discussed as much as it should be. And you know, and that unfortunately trickles down to our generation, you know, as first generation American, Asian Americans, you know. Did that – That must have played a major role in you choosing psychiatry. So I’m ask- so what I’m asking is, at what point did you realize, like, you know, psychiatry is the one for me? How did your upbringing or how did your background like sort of lend to that? 

Donna: Yeah, so I would say, um you know every so every med student uh is going to go through third year rotations, psych is one of them. When I went through my psychiatry rotation it was the best ever. One, because a lot of things that we helped patients with were very personal and intimate, and medicine is already intimate enough, but to explain this further, when I was in my surgery rotation which is– people think are like polar opposites, right, surgery versus psychiatry. When I was in my surgery rotation they were like in awe. They were like, “oh, you’re interested in psychiatry, we’ve had some we’ve read some psychiatry colleagues actually become psychiatrists and we were trying to figure out like the correlation between them and what we kind of figured out was that with surgery, you’re basically cutting into a person right like you’re sticking their hand into their abdomen. That’s as pretty physically intimate as you can get. Right? Like you’re literally cutting into a patient and sewing them up. For psychiatry, you’re basically doing that, but you’re dissecting their mind. And you’re figuring out their traumas, like what it is that they really think, what drives them as a human being. A lot of my co-interns really like this philosophical view on psychiatry as well. It’s more of a narrative medicine. And so I think that, you know, after going through all of my rotations, like, this is the one for me. I want to figure people out. I want to figure out how to help them, because you know like there’s a pill you know for diabetes and yes there are pills for depression and stuff like that. But if you ask any psychiatrist, no one is going to give you a straight answer on exactly how to fix depression. There is no definitive or numerical answer, right? Versus like diabetes, you have a hemoglobin A1C, like either you have diabetes or you don’t, right? Pretty easy. With depression or like schizophrenia the other psychiatry like um, diseases and disorders, it’s not that straightforward. And so I kind of like that complexity, and I find that incredibly rewarding. And a lot of public health is a lot of public mental health as well. Behavioral things that people can do to increase not only their mental health but also their physical health too. And so I think that right now, in the past few years, since the pandemic started in 2020, mental health has kind of exploded on the scene. You know, everyone’s just now paying attention to it a lot more than it used to be and telehealth is basically rising in the ranks. And so just you know, having followed along this past like four years, I think, it’s been really interesting to see how psychiatry evolved as a field and also in the landscape of medicine. So I’m very interested to see in this upcoming administration, how psychiatry medicine is going to be impacted by this different you know presidency this different congress right it’s going to be completely Republican run, and seeing like what that does to medicine and our population health in general?

20:39 Learning About and Joining APAMSA

James: Yeah, absolutely. That is um…I there’s so much. Yeah. I can’t even imagine how. Cuz we don’t really think about the environmental factors and how they impact, you know, our mental health. Environment, meaning like anything not like out of our control. Man, that is a very wild thought to ponder, you know? And so you talk about how your third year rotation is when it clicked for you for psychiatry. If we rewind just a little bit more, was it your first or second year that you joined APAMSA? 

Donna: Oh, joining APAMSA was actually a wild, another wild story. So, I don’t know. I always laugh at this because I don’t know if it makes me a good president or a bad president before, but before like med school, I didn’t really know APAMSA existed. Like, when I got to med school, I was like, “Oh, it was probably like some Asian med student organization,” and that’s when I found APAMSA. But literally like did not exist until like med school. So I like first semester of med school we had some really nice upperclassmen, second years. I think they went to the 2018, 2019? Like that National Conference. It was in person, it was pre-COVID in person. And they were like, hey, we need some like regional director who wants to run and like, no one was running because it was the Midwest. Like, no, there was like one, not enough like representation, which was sad, but also two like, I’m telling you, like people, like, for some reason, like, don’t want to run for positions or don’t want to have these experiences. It’s wild for me. So me and a couple of my classmates ran for RD, regional director positions, and we got it because no one else ran for it. And so that was my first way into like being involved with APAMSA. And then luckily, for me, someone, another national board member was unable to finish out their year as Committee Outreach Director. And so I was the very last person to actually hold two national director positions at the same time. And I thought it was going to be like crazy. I’m a very yes-hype woman. So I was like, oh, yeah, totally. Like I’m happy to help out. But it turned out okay. I think because of those two experiences simultaneously, I got to talk to different branches, different people in APAMSA and I loved it. Then I ran for EVP and then President and the rest was kind of history. But yeah, I started very early on and stayed involved because I think the people that you meet, the friends that you meet, they’re still my friends now. Like I literally text them like almost every week. So if APAMSA is a wonderful organization, I think I’m preaching to the choir here, but and everyone truly wants to make a difference, you know? And I think that that’s what really drives people to be in APAMSA and to stay together. 

James: Yeah, absolutely. I think in my own experience, since I’m now only I’m barely about to have one year of APAMSA national board under my belt, I will say for anybody that is interested like, to our listeners who may be interested in running for the national board. If you do decide to pursue this opportunity, it will really change your life, but it is what you put into it, you know? You could just let this just be a residency builder for med school or to get into residency. But like, so far, all of my favorite memories have been the ones where I created events or I collaborated with others and made everything a united effort. You know, this, for example, like I mentioned this in the introduction, like I’m just the Fundraising Director. You wouldn’t expect–

Donna: You’re not JUST the fundraising director. You’re our fundraiser, you’re THE fundraising director. Yeah. 

James: True, true, true. But you wouldn’t necessarily expect the Fundraising Director to be the host of the APAMSA Podcast, you know? But it’s about taking your unique skills and sharing it with the organization and allowing you to flourish in the most beautiful kinds of ways, you know? 

Donna: Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. 

25:04 Donna’s APAMSA Legacy

James: And so in your case, you know, since you’ve served, like you’ve worn so many hats, you’ve done so many things for the organization, looking back, what are some of the things you are most proud of during your time in APAMSA?

Donna: Yeah, I think what I’m most proud of was, I found my purpose and I stood by it and I still stand by it, it’s actually my purpose. And I think from that very cemented purpose came like, you know, multiple initiatives that I wanted to start and are still in effect today. And so, you know, my, I think that everyone, they have the potential to be a leader. And it really just takes a little bit of awareness, a little bit of opportunity and some magic. And I think that everyone can find a place within our healthcare system within this world to be able to enact the changes that they want to. So I don’t think, you know, APAMSA being on national board or executive board is like this exclusive elite club. It absolutely is not. Everyone came from somewhere and I’m very humbled by that belief that I hold every single time. I don’t think anyone is too big or too small for a task. I like still make PowerPoint excels, right. Like, I don’t have a secretary doing that for me. But really, like leaders just start out, you know, doing things that they want to help solve problems and help the community with. And so because of that belief that I had, I really tried to instill that into my national board during the two years. And so there were some things that I wanted to implement that would sustain the organization for a very long time and be able to carry on you know these like legacy aspects of that that would help future students as well. And so one being give you an example was membership dues. We were the student medical student organization to not like have membership dues. And I think in part was because we’re a newer organization we started around 1994. And so, you know, you know, a lot behind many years behind you know, SNMA or LMSA, but that’s totally fine right come in existence when we come, but at the same time, we were also struggling to keep afloat, to be able to do all these initiatives and support our students with grants, scholarships, etc. So one was implementing dues. And the second thing was creating more opportunities and structure within national board to be able to pipeline just, you know, student members who want to explore the national board and come into these positions of leadership. For example, when I just started into my presidency, we actually created the diversity branch. You would think that it was here forever but it was not. It is like maybe five years old. It’s not that old. Same with advocacy. Advocacy just came into existence right before I got into the National Board. It was like probably within like 10 years old or something like that. So Diversity branch was created, we created also multiple committees nationally standardized National Committees for the Diversity branch. So in addition, like created like the Leadership position Director, Women’s Director position, and created those like corresponding committees as well. So all these things is to increase participation, engagement, and I just really wanted to nail in that you know, this isn’t like a me position, this is a we position. I cannot run everything by myself as president during that time, no matter how much you think you can, but it needs to be a team effort. And so I think that me trying to instill those values and seeing some of those initiatives still be in existence today, it still makes me very proud. So good job guys. I’m not doing any of those work anymore. You all are. But you know, just being able to recognize that, you know … in a place temporarily and how much good we can do is really reflected on what you can leave behind that’s sustainable and that is positive. And so every though I’m a resident now like I still always come back because the APAMSA so was so much fun and it was so meaningful that I think that you know, it was really such a rewarding experience for me. 

James: Absolutely. I mean you truly do have such a long-lasting legacy at APAMSA. I think something that inspires me so much about the work you’ve done and so much of the national board and past presidents and everybody, all of the alumni, is that like, what you guys have done is truly like. You found APAMSA in a away and then you left it in a better state than what you got.

Donna: We tried.

James: And so that’s, I feel like if somebody is ever interested in joining this org, that’s what should be motivating them to do more than what their position entails. What can you do to keep growing and create that sustainable change. Yeah, but yeah, man, you inspire me so much. I can’t wait to– our elections are in 3 months.

Donna: You’ll somehow someway you’ll get there time will fly. Next thing you know, you’re graduating and you’re going to be a psychiatrist yourself.

30:32 Debunking Misconceptions of the Medical Field and School

James: One can only hope, yeah. But in that case, so, since we’re talking about the future, to some degree, I think you now being a PGY-1 at Stanford. That’s huge. I feel like something that we as medical students and we as, like, you know, not doctors yet, there are a lot of misconceptions we have about what’s to come, whether it’s even just about medical school or residency or about being a doctor 101, you know, one of the first personal huge misconceptions I had about medicine that I hear from my mentors, you know. It’s not all fun where it’s all treating patients all the time. Like, what I’ve been told is that there’s a lot of paperwork, like, more than you can possibly imagine, you know? And so, in that theme, what are some common misconceptions about the medical field or medical school in general that you think requires some clarification or something that you would like to enlighten our listeners on?

Donna: Ya, so I agree with what you said. And I’ll just kind of integrate and echo a bit of what I also said earlier. Like you said, I think the biggest misconception is that you go through all the schooling and, you know, we expect to come out and feel like, you know, Gray’s Anatomy is doctor. Right. Like that’s totally not how it works. Not even with that level of trauma. I like when I was in medical school, I really took that time for granted. Because it was really hard, right? Like you dig your nose into the books. And you’re like, okay, once I learn all this information, I spit it out, I take STEP1, STEP2, I go to residency, you know, I’ll just like magically know everything. And the whole system will make sense. Speaking as a PGY-1, that’s not the case, but probably physicians who are veterans even, you know with years of experience under their belt, they could probably still tell you that like the system still doesn’t make any sense even though you’ve been out of med school for so many years. And so I guess but you know misconceptions, the biggest misconception I had in medical school was that I thought going through medical school and graduating would give me this magic wand to feel better about myself and about my job and career in medicine. And that’s just not the case. So if you’re waiting to feel better magically at some point, sometime – it’s kind of parallel with adulting right? Like there’s no adulthood ceremony even though you know 18 is like the legal age and then 21 you can drink, right? You graduate undergrad. But there’s no like– you know, oh, at 25 now you’re magically an adult because you can actually rent a car. I think it’s like 24, 25 or something. And then at 26, you’re off your parents like insurer, health insurance right? There’s no magical ceremony that will graduate you into adulthood, that will graduate you into doctorhood and make you feel better at all. And so I think that that cognitive dissonance between your expectations and the reality of medicine in this world is very jarring. I think medical students and doctors live in our bubbles a lot of the time. And that’s why with like, you know, white ivory tower schools, you know staying in academia, like, there’s even a problem with physicians like talking to their patients, like half the time, like, we say these all these huge– jargon. And these patients are looking at you and they’re like ‘uh-huh’. Like we can’t even like communicate with our patients sometimes. And I think that’s a reflection on our own notions as a physician community. And in thinking that once I go through these like rites of passages, right, pre-med, med, you know, residency, attending, then life’s gonna be a hundred times better. And it just doesn’t. And so what I say is that, you know, during along this journey, you should just try to experience the journey for itself and find meaning for what you’re doing right now. If you’re always thinking about like the next step or having to achieve the next step, then I’ll be happy or then I’ll be successful, then you’re never going to feel fully whole and fully happy until you’re on your deathbed, right? And even then, people still have regrets right before they die. So I think being a doctor is a very cautious choice, like, about what you want to do and about the realities of it. And so, you know, I know it’s hard not to pigeonhole yourself into thinking about the next step, or about this perfect system that’ll magically appear to you on a red carpet once you graduate med school, but it’s not reality. If you look at data and research just in general, like that’s like, you know, physicians are twice, I think, yeah, two times at a higher risk for depression and mental health distress than the general population. And there’s a reason why, right? So yeah, I would say that’s the biggest shocker that I have learned throughout my years. I’m still learning now, right, and it’s hard for me to take my own advice. So hopefully, like, if someone out there is listening, than you can take a step back and just really reflect on your journey as you are showing up right now. There’s no other expectations for you than for you to just be yourself right now.

James: That is very wise, Donna. I think especially something that a lot of, for example, maybe our younger viewers or the listeners can relate to is that like, speaking on my own behalf, I remember I always looked at my parents and thought, wow, they really know, like, they have everything under control. 

Donna: No, they don’t. No, absolutely not. 

37:07 This Or That? Questions

James: Exactly. No, they don’t. You know, and I’m like, I remember thinking when I was 21, it’s like, oh maybe when I’m finally in med school or when I’m done with – I’ll feel like more under control, more grounded. But no, it’s literally just take everything one day at a time, you know? So thank you. Thank you for sharing that. That is definitely something that needed to be expanded upon. That is wow. Thank you, Donna. In any case, we’re coming to a close for this next episode of the APAMSA Podcast, and on a more lighthearted note to get to know you better on a more personal level with a couple of This-OR-That questions. So It’s simply an A or B, choose one, just let your heart decide.

Donna: Alright lets go.  

James: Awesome. City or beach?

Donna: Beach, sorry guys.

James: Cats or dogs?

Donna: Dogs, I have one next to me.

James: Boba Princess? Princess Boba? Text or call?

Donna: Like what I prefer? Or– see I’m overthinking it. Text, I’m terrible, I’m a millennial, we just text we don’t want to call

James: Black or white?

Donna: Black

James: Morning or night?

Donna: Night owl

James: Summer or winter?

Donna: Summer, I was also born in July so, Summer forever.

James: Breakfast or dinner?

Donna: I’m a dinner girl.

James: Would you rather have the power to be invisible or the power to read minds.

Donna: As a psychiatrist, 100% read minds. Well I guess that would make my job too easy I wouldn’t even have to talk to the patient, I would just be like “I know what you’re thinking” and bam, bam bam. That’s it. But also if there’s a way to shut it off that would be nice. Like selectively using my powers.

James: Ya this is supposed to be a rapid fire segment but I do have but I do have to say I remember one of the things that um, psychiatry during my psychiatry didactic block, there was this like exercise that our professor had us do where we were all talking basically at like max volume, you know, and we were assigned to like, try to remember a list or something. And basically by the end of it, like we could not hear our own voice, our own thoughts based off like, over everybody else. And it was supposed to mimic like, you know, hallucinations or, you know, people who suffer from that. I was like, if you have the ability to read minds and experience what our patients are experiencing, that would be pretty wild, you know? But in any case, would you rather have a hundred thousand to spend on yourself or a million you can only spend on others? 

Donna: Oh, a million to spend on others, cause then, I don’t know, I’ll just ask my mom to just buy me stuff. I don’t know. I’m joking.

James: And then we have two more. One of these is, I will only ask of you to cater specifically towards our special alumni guests. Indoor or outdoor climb? 

Donna: Oh indoor. I’m sorry, I’m a weenie, I don’t know how to outdoor climb yet. I know, I wanna learn. It’s on my list to do.

James: If you ever find yourself back in Vegas I will take you to Red Rock.

Donna: That’s classic rite of passage right there.

James: Exactly. And then finally would you rather retake STEP1 or retake the MCAT?

Donna: Oh 100% STEP1 100%. So I, so I used to teach MCAT as well but MCAT just doesn’t it doesn’t make sense like the O-chem, the physics, I did not care about it. Also, I think MCAT is more miserable because you can retake it multiple times. Whereas for, I mean, there is a passing score-ish, but like with STEP1 you just need to take it and pass. So I’d rather do that versus MCAT, you have to retake it multiple times if you don’t, if you aren’t happy with your score. I feel like that just messes people up. ‘Cause how many times did you remember hearing your friends say, oh yeah, retake the MCAT again. That is like years of your life. I feel like that’s more hellish than just taking STEP one once and then passing it.

James:  Absolutely. I have not taken step one yet, but I will eventually.

Donna: It’s pass or fail. You’re going to pass. You’re going to pass. Like, it’s going to happen. You’re only going to take it once and then you’re done. Whereas MCAT, it’s like, I’ve never used O-chem again, just FYI. I’m very starched, like advocate against O-chem. Just not using it. Yeah. 

41:20 Advice for Pre-Health and Medical Students

James: Nice. Well, in that case, that brings us to the end of our This-or-That segment. Thank you for your candid and thoughtful responses. As we wrap up, we love to close out our one-on-one series by seeking advice from our incredible guests. I know you provided a lot of wisdom with our misconception question, but I would still like to ask anyways, if you have anything else that you would like to share, is there any piece of wisdom or advice you’d like to share with somebody navigating the journey of medical school slash medicine? 

Donna: Absolutely. So I would have to confess that this is not my original thought, and I don’t even think it was this person’s original thought that said it, probably honestly came from Nike marketing. So I actually saw Mr. John Chu, who’s the director of Wicked and also Crazy Rich Asians up in SF. He’s doing a fireside chat talk with Aquafina. It was super awesome just seeing them like chatting on stage and talking about their lives and the creative arts of film. A really like great breather from medicine. And he was asked a lot of these questions as well and advice for people, etc. And I remember distinctly the moment, he was telling us that he was teaching a class at USC and he was sitting at I think some like loading dock or something. And he was crying because he wasted five years of his life trying to make another breakthrough film after Steven Spielberg had discovered him very early on at film school. And he felt like he was wasting his life and not moving forward. And the breaking point was him, was that he just realized at some point he said you just have to go do it. Just do it. That’s it. Three simple words, just do it. And it’s like three words that’s on like a Nike logo, but I was just listening to a story and I was just like know what he’s right like if I don’t do what I want to do now, what I’m passionate about, then one, no one else is going to do it, and two, or someone else is going to do it. And I’d rather do it because it’s something that I’m passionate about. And so I think that that advice really kicked me off to continue wanting to start up the National Asian Physician Association, NAPA, with APAMSA. So really thanks to, you know Mr. John Chu, who’s the director of really famous movies, just giving really good advice. And it didn’t even come from like a doctor. It came from a director, a film director, right? He was just like, just do it. And I was like, you know what, you’re right, Mr. John Chu, I’m gonna go do it. So, yep. I hopefully, like, if anyone’s listening out there again, like, if there’s something you just want to do, just, just do it. If there’s any doubt in your mind and it’s not obviously illegal or bad for anybody, like just start doing it. You be surprised how far you can go even if it’s just a little bit a day at a time. And it’s going to take a day at a time. Nothing’s going to come, success doesn’t come overnight. It just really, it takes 10 years for success to come overnight. I don’t know if people’ve heard that saying before, but that really speaks to volume about preparation, opportunities, and persistence in regards to success.

James: Wow. That is an amazing piece of advice. And definitely, it’s something that I needed to hear, especially about, from our earlier offline conversation. But in any case, Donna, Dr. Tran, it’s truly been a pleasure getting to know you better. We are so grateful for the time you took out of your day to join us and share your story, and even more so, all the time you dedicated to being a leader in APAMSA. To all of our listeners, we hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did. Don’t forget to tune in next time for more inspiring stories and insights. Take care.